Veterans Affairs Committee on June 6th, 2006

[Pierre Allard]

We'll have to seek some guidance....

[Mary Ann Burdett]

We'll look for some guidance from our committees on it. The model we were discussing today is not too far from what is there, but it is more simplified, which is probably a wise move. We perhaps rambled a bit in our original draft, but as soon as we can, we will get....

What we're talking about here is just the Legion one; it is not the combined veterans organizations and Veterans Affairs Canada one. This was just our original thought.

[Pierre Allard]

The problem also depends on what model of ombudsman is eventually approved. If it is a legislated mandate, you might want to do the same thing for the veterans bill of rights, so you might have to use slightly different language if you want to embed the veterans bill of rights in legislation. If you want to do it through a ministerial direction with some debate in Parliament only to be noted, or whatever the term is, then the language can be different. Again, rather than posting something that is still in a draft state, I think we will have to wait and see what it is in the art of the possible.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Perron is next, from the Bloc.

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

I will be very brief, Mr. Chairman.

I would like to start by saying something to my friend, Pierre. I want us to be on the same wavelength, Pierre, and I want us to speak frankly to each other. I will list about 10 activities and you can tell me whether or not they are part of what the Royal Canadian Legion does. First, does the Legion organize blood donor clinics? Yes, that is part of the Royal Canadian Legion's activities. What about presenting historical lectures on the First and Second World Wars? Yes, you do that. Do you give students scholarships? Yes, you do. Do you help young people financially or otherwise in the area of sports? You say you do. Do you help people such as veterans find solutions to their problems? Yes, you do. Do you organize Christmas parties? You say you do. Do you organize card parties? You say you do. Do you organize dart games? You do. Do you organize breaks so that people can have a beer? You say you do.

In Quebec, we call all of those activities a social mission. Consequently, the Royal Canadian Legion is a social club. I never said that you were part of a club whose main reason for existing was to have a drink. You have the same social mission as a social club. Consequently, would you care to retract your comment, because I did not describe the Legion incorrectly.

My next comment is to the chair. Mr. Chairman, I think we missed the boat today. Next time you invite witnesses please ask them to give us their views about establishing an ombudsman's post and about the charter and, if they have no views on these matters, please ask them to stay home. Today, we've been contesting or promoting the Royal Canadian Legion, but we have not talked about the ombudsman or the charter. It was a waste of my time.

I am not saying that the people were not nice or friendly, but they did not give us their own definitions of certain terms. We don't have time to wait. We are here to find out what they think about this so that we can come to some conclusions ourselves. That is not what we heard today. I apologize, but I think it was a waste of my time. That was not because Pierre and Ms. Burdett did not want to do a good job. They did a good job and they gave us a good introduction to the Royal Canadian Legion.

I preferred your last visit. In 2005, you appeared before the committee and we asked you what you thought about the ombudsman. You said that you wanted no such position. Thank you for that — you said exactly what you thought. We did not waste any time. After that, we moved to other matters and had a friendly discussion about the Royal Canadian Legion. I was not expecting you to define your vision for me today. I did not want to hear what the government thinks, I wanted your opinion about the ombudsman and about the charter. That does not mean that your vision is wrong and that ours is right. We are here to determine what the ombudsman should do, what he should be, how he should act and what rights veterans should have.

That was our task today. We were not here to talk about just anything. Our job is to learn from your knowledge to make up our minds about these things. We were unable to benefit from your knowledge. I'm sorry, but in my opinion, today's meeting was not very productive. I do not know whether my colleagues share my opinion, but I've never said privately what I wanted to say openly.

[Pierre Allard]

It is unfortunate that you hold this opinion, because I think we told you what a statement of veterans' rights should be. We even gave you a draft of it.

We also said that things were evolving, that we could not give you any other drafts until we have completed our consultations with our colleagues in the other organizations. We will keep you posted, to the best of our ability.

Today, we are saying that we are not at all opposed to having an ombudsman. That is—

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

You've changed your mind! A year ago, you were completely opposed to the idea. I would have preferred that you tell us today that you have not made up your mind completely. You could have asked us to give you time to prepare, another three or six months—

[Anthony Rota, Liberal, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

On a point of order, Mr. Chairman.

We are talking about things that we should perhaps be discussing among ourselves, not before these individuals who were kind enough to come in to meet with us and to provide us with information. If we did not get the information we wanted, perhaps it is the committee's fault and not that of our witnesses. If we are going to have a discussion, I would prefer that we do so in camera, not publicly in front of our witnesses who, as I said earlier, were kind enough to come and meet with us today.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

I appreciate your intervention, Mr. Rota, but I think I take it as a point of debate. At this stage we are at five minutes and 30 seconds into Mr. Perron's time, so unless the Legion wishes to pick up on that strain and carry forward, I think we'll move on to Mr. Thibault's set of questions.

[Robert Thibault, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

Thank you for the indulgence. I might be stepping on the time of another, but I've asked the chair for a very short question.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

No, it's Liberal time. It's fine.

[Robert Thibault, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

I have a group of young people in my riding who are very dedicated to the cause of veterans groups, to Veterans Affairs, to remembrance of the acts of war and the sacrifice of not only veterans but Canadian families, who sacrificed through all those wars and continue to sacrifice in our military operations today. They're called the Memorial Club and they represent two schools in Nova Scotia, in Yarmouth. They were just in Halifax and gave their first silver cross. They have created a silver cross and they gave it, I believe, to the father of Corporal Green who was lost in the friendly fire incident, or Corporal Smith. I get mixed up between the two, but--

[Mary Ann Burdett]

Nathan Smith.

[Robert Thibault, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

Nathan Smith, thank you.

They were in Ottawa three or four years ago. They raised $85,000 to bring their group to Ottawa to do an event at the memorial. They are a lovely group of people, dedicated parents and volunteers, who organize it. One of their mission statements is to have November 11 recognized as a national holiday.

I had a discussion with the then president of Nova Scotia/Nunavut Command, and their position at the time--I will paraphrase, and I hope I don't misrepresent it--was that they opposed statutory holiday status for November 11. They wished it to be recognized on a voluntary basis, that people would close their businesses or shops until noon or one o'clock and then resume their life's work if they so chose. I know that in Nova Scotia all the public institutions close down for the day, all the schools, most of the businesses. People do it voluntarily, and it had a lot of meaning for the Legion's organizations because it was voluntary and they would have preferred it that way.

Is there a position of the national Legion organization on the matter of statutory holiday status for November 11?

[Mary Ann Burdett]

At the present time it is left to the discretion of the commands, depending on the province actually. In British Columbia it is a statutory holiday and in Ontario it is not.

The national position is to leave it to the discretion of the commands as to how they go about handling it, but that is not set by the Legion, of course. Because of the discrepancies in the feelings of the various commands, we have not made a national stand on it. It has been brought to our convention, time without number, that we advocate for a national holiday on November 11, and the vote has been shot down. They have not, as a body, agreed to have it as a national holiday. So we stand that it is not, but if in a province it is, so be it.

[Robert Thibault, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

So in short, there would be no position at this time.

[Mary Ann Burdett]

Right.

[Robert Thibault, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

There's another point I would like to raise with you, or maybe two quick points. One is the question, in my view, of an ombudsman. I think it's been stated by many people in different ways, but I see some veterans come to my door who've been through the process and are unsatisfied. Now maybe the decisions that have been taken are completely justifiable, and then maybe they're not.

I see the role of an ombudsman as not necessarily somebody who would have authority, but somebody who would have the tools to review and make a recommendation that the file be reopened or not, just so that there would be an independent or impartial person who would look at whether the people in the positions of authority did their jobs properly as this was managed. That's where I see it.

In regard to the veterans independence program, I am surprised at how many people there are. Those who are the widows or widowers or caregivers of veterans are at the age now where they need it, and they don't have six to seven years left for study. I don't know what the numbers are, how many there are, but I would say that I've been in contact with at least a dozen in western Nova Scotia.

It's something I regret that we missed when we did the last modifications, because we did include a whole new group of people who I'm pleased are not cut off any more a year after the loss of their spouse; they maintain their service. I would hope that we are able to do that.

Thank you. I guess I'm out of time. I do thank you for coming and appearing and making your presentation here today.

[Mary Ann Burdett]

I would like to thank you for your time.

I hope many of you had your questions answered. We certainly answered them to the best of our ability at the present time with the knowledge we have. You can rest assured that we will continue to work for the good of the veteran, and we will continue to cooperate with Veterans Affairs Canada and the other service organizations to the very best of our ability.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

All right.

Mr. Perron, on a point of order.

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Mr. Chairman, I think we missed the boat at this meeting. We can all blame each other.

My friend Roger spoke about the need for the Canadian Legion in northern Ontario. It is true that the Canadian Legion is necessary there, but the purpose of this meeting was not to talk about the Legion, but rather about the ombudsman and the charter. I think we all missed the boat by getting sidetracked in a discussion about the Canadian Legion, rather than listening to what the witnesses had to say about the ombudsman and the charter.

We should be careful. This is not a piece of advice, but rather a recommendation for the clerk. We should clearly inform our witnesses that we have invited them to discuss the ombudsman and the Veterans Charter, not their association or the problems various people may have.

That is my opinion. If you felt insulted, I apologize. I have always spoken frankly and I say what I think, but sometimes I may get a little carried away.

[Pierre Allard]

I am referring to our presentation, Mr. Perron.

[Mary Ann Burdett]

I answered the questions that were asked of me, sir, by whoever asked them.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

I think I can say, Mr. Perron, that our friends from the Legion will share some of their experiences here with the other associations that appear before us. I imagine that others who come will have some fairly detailed views—

[Robert Thibault, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

On a point of order, Mr. Chairman.