Veterans Affairs Committee on June 6th, 2006

[Anthony Rota, Liberal, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

Good. I can go either way. No, don't take that the wrong way.

Thank you for coming, Ms. Burdett and Mr. Allard. I know we've been looking at the question of an ombudsman. We went through it in the last session of Parliament and we covered quite a bit of it. I'm glad to hear that one of the concerns we're having is the fact that there is no clear definition of what an ombudsman should be. So until we actually know what we're getting into, it's going to be hard to comment. However, there is one issue that came up that I would like you to comment on.

There seem to be two different groups, and maybe there are two different services that are required. I look at the older veterans, those who went through Korea, those who went through the Second World War and some of the earlier peacekeeping, and there seems to be more of a social fabric, where you rely on some of your colleagues to help you out. It's not that the newer crew doesn't, but it seems that the earlier veterans seemed to rely on the Legion and their peers to get them the help they needed, and the later crew of veterans, who are more recent, look to institutionalized aid that might come in the way of an ombudsman.

Could you comment on that, the differences or the evolving changes within our veteran population and the needs that are there?

[Mary Ann Burdett]

Again, the very short answer is that it's a sign of the times. The people of today, the younger group of people, let's say age 45 and down, have a different way of reacting to situations than the older veterans did. You're quite right. The older veterans were, or are in some cases, more open to their peers, although there's a great deal of pride and privacy required with them as well. The present-day military is used to having an ombudsman. No matter how different a situation it is, they would be aware of dealings with one and probably would fit in with that in a more comfortable way.

As far as them coming to the Legion for help, many do. But once again, they aren't the ones you hear about. You ask them and they say they don't know; they don't know much about them. Yet there are very few branches in Canada that do not have regular service members as members of the legions, or two or three of them.

So I could only say it is a change in society that has brought about that slightly different change of attitude. I do believe, though, that the retirees from the military will probably find they are changing their attitudes toward veterans organizations, be it the Legion or whichever one it is, not only when they age but when they see what these organizations are prepared to do for them as retirees from the military, or what we are prepared to do for the people who are there.

The support for the military has been much, much stronger in the last few years than it has ever been, more outspoken from your service organizations.

[Anthony Rota, Liberal, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

Thank you. I think that simply highlights the different needs out there, in not saying either/or, and I don't think we should ever move to a situation where we must have a war in order to provide the level of service that our veterans deserve.

[Mary Ann Burdett]

We need both.

[Anthony Rota, Liberal, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

The next question I have is regarding the VIP. There have been quite a few improvements over the last few years. I want to say the last 13 years, just for Mrs. Hinton, but I won't say that. I wouldn't take a cheap shot like that.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Anthony Rota, Liberal, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

The question is a very serious one. For the VIP that is available to the widows and caregivers, there have been some changes for those who died prior to 1981. Yet there's a lot of demand out there, and I hear a lot of it in my office on a regular basis. We have widows or caregivers coming in and saying they deserve this, they would like to have this service, but they can't access it.

What changes would you like to see to the VIP so that more caregivers, widows, and widowers would benefit from the service?

[Mary Ann Burdett]

I'm a little bit surprised that you say you get many inquiries into your office, because there can't possibly be that many of them left from 1981.

[Robert Thibault, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

There are quite a few.

[Mary Ann Burdett]

That program originated for the assistance of veterans. If the veteran didn't have it or wasn't eligible for it, the widow was not eligible. This, of course, is what has happened for these widows from 1981.

Where do we want that one to go? I think it would take a little study. It sounds like something you should just jump right in there and do; they're so old and they need all the help they can get. But there is nothing you can do out of which there won't be ramifications. It would have to be studied before it was jumped into, to see just what you were encompassing.

[Pierre Allard]

I think the issue on this one is the eligibility matrix that is out there, not only for those widows but for anybody who wants to access VIP. The eligibility matrix is so complex that even service providers have a hard time understanding how one becomes eligible for VIP.

VIP was mandated to provide aging in place--in other words, in your residence--but because we've defined residence as a home rather than a condo or an apartment, that also makes it more complex. That's why we're saying here in our presentation that maybe you should look at what is the need of the individual to access VIP in the context of aging at home with more flexibility.

[Anthony Rota, Liberal, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

So it's simplification of access and opening it up--

[Pierre Allard]

It's simplification of the accessibility, enlargement of some of the parameters, but keeping the fundamental principle that what you're trying to do is to keep an aging, frail person in their residence, whatever that may be.

[Anthony Rota, Liberal, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

Very good. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Now we'll go to the Conservative Party for five minutes, and I believe Ms. Hinton expressed an interest here.

[Betty Hinton, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Thank you.

I dare say, I think there have been improvements to the VIP program in the last year and a half. I would give full credit to members of this committee who were here last year--Anthony Rota, Gilles Perron, and me--because we fought very hard for VIP improvements, and we were successful in having some people included who used to be excluded. So I think that speaks well of this committee as a whole and the commitment this committee has to veterans.

That said, I've been listening very carefully to the conversation that has been going on around the table today. It's always good conversation, but there seem to be some misconceptions here.

On the ombudsman, I agree with you, it was originally talked about in 1966, and here we are in 2006 and we still don't have it. So it's long overdue and it's time. But in terms of what the government could do, it had two choices: one choice was simply to decide on its own what an ombudsman would be and how it would be structured, and just do it, or it could do what we have chosen to do, which is to give a choice to all parties in the House, who all have concerns, and to consult with all veterans groups and get their input. So there's no reason to be the least bit embarrassed about being a little unsure of what you think the ombudsman's role is going to be, because it hasn't been determined yet.

We need to hear from veterans groups. We need to hear from opposition parties. We need to hear input from veterans themselves--and I'm hoping we're going to hear from a lot of veterans--about what we could actually do that would improve their lives.

This isn't a question. It's more a statement than anything else.

I would like to close by thanking you very much for all you do as the Legion. I recognize the contribution you make to this country, I recognize the contribution you make to veterans, and I'm here to assure you that all we want to do is back that up. That's what the ombudsman position is all about.

The bill of rights is another issue that's going to have to be dealt with, and I agree again. I've heard it said today that it would be like putting the cart before the horse if you didn't have a bill of rights for an ombudsman to oversee or to enforce--whatever wording you want to use. So I look forward to your cooperation in putting this together, and I think we can play a very significant role.

My understanding, Ms. Burdett, is that you're going to be leaving your position, so I may not see you again. That's happening in the next little while, is it?

[Mary Ann Burdett]

I will no longer be the president of the Royal Canadian Legion as of the end of this month. However, I will have two years as immediate past president, during which time I will be fully involved; as far as never seeing me again, there isn't a prayer.

[Betty Hinton, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

I'm reassured to hear that. It's great when a past president is able to stay on and guide the new president.

Thank you from the people on this committee for all the work you have done. I appreciate it, and it's nice to know we'll see more of you.

[Mary Ann Burdett]

Thank you very much.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

The draft from the Royal Canadian Legion, the bill of rights--was it tabled?

[Betty Hinton, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

No. It's on their web page.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Okay.

[Mary Ann Burdett]

It's in our presentation.

[Pierre Allard]

I would like to add that we've evolved and that we have reached consensus with a new model, but that was our original draft. This is not the consensus that we reached today, which would still be at the draft level, as far as the government is concerned, until they approve it.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Where can we get it? Is it going to be updated on your website soon?