Evidence of meeting #7 for Veterans Affairs in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rights.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Sean Bruyea  As an Individual
Perry Gray  As an Individual
Tom Hoppe  As an Individual

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Anders

Hello, everybody.

We're starting off yet another one of our Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs meetings, and today we're trying to delve into, if you will, the proposed veterans bill of rights. We're also studying the veterans independence program and the veterans ombudsman. So we ask our committee members, as well as the witnesses today, to try to focus their remarks on those things and give us feedback in terms of how we'll set up the ombudsman and how we can improve the independence program and the bill of rights.

I don't know who would like to make their presentation first. All right, Sean. I'm going to try your name, sir. Is it Bruyea?

3:30 p.m.

Sean Bruyea As an Individual

It is Bruyea. That's correct.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Anders

Okay, wonderful. You have the floor, sir.

3:30 p.m.

As an Individual

Sean Bruyea

Thanks.

Good afternoon, Chairman and other committee members. I thank you all for inviting us here today. More importantly, I congratulate all of you on the creation of the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs.

I am Sean Bruyea, and joining me here today are Perry Gray and Tom Hoppe. Mr. Hoppe presently sits on the advisory committee to the DND/CF ombudsman, as he has done for the past four years. He is also Canada's most decorated soldier for bravery since Korea. Mr. Hoppe and Mr. Gray are both veterans of the former Yugoslavia conflict, and both are very passionate advocates for the rights of veterans and their families.

Chairman and committee members, I also congratulate Prime Minister Harper for taking the first steps to fulfill his promise to immediately create an ombudsman for Veterans Affairs Canada and a veterans bill of rights. I would also like to thank Minister Thompson for making the ombudsman and the veterans bill of rights his highest priorities.

These initiatives are long overdue. An ombudsman for veterans was first recommended by the Woods committee in 1967. It also follows years after Australia and the United States created similar bodies to ensure the fair, just, and equal treatment of veterans and a confidential recourse for all, should the system fail.

We all recognize that what we are trying to achieve here today, from whatever viewpoint, directly affects the men and women who, as we speak, are putting their lives on the line for us in Afghanistan. We are not talking abstracts. We are talking real flesh and blood.

I will focus on the issue of the ombudsman for VAC, including the role, vision, and mandate, as well as emphasize the reasons for creating the ombudsman sooner rather than later. Indeed, it has never been more urgent to create an independent ombudsman. The first wave of young Afghanistan veterans is coming home to face the yet untested provisions of the new Veterans Charter.

Many of you know that the new Veterans Charter was created in great haste and passed in the House of Commons in only a single day on May 10 of last year, based on the tacit support of groups that primarily represent the veterans of Korea and the Second World War, for whom the new Veterans Charter's provisions do not apply.

As a result, the current Minister of Veterans Affairs is concerned about the new Veterans Charter. A perfect storm is brewing, and it has seven unlucky, coinciding components: first is a quarter of a million aging war veterans, plus their families and survivors, who are putting increasing demands on the current health care system; second is hastily passed, untested legislation through Bill C-45; third are overworked, underresourced VAC front-line staff who are trying to maintain old programs while implementing new ones; fourth is an inability or unwillingness to keep previous ministers' promises to review the new Veterans Charter every four months; fifth is VAC bureaucratic opposition to the creation of an ombudsman, especially one with real powers; sixth is repeated ministerial and government statements “recognizing the debt owed to all our veterans”; and seventh are young, wounded veterans returning from Afghanistan at a time when the federal government is trying to increase recruitment for the Canadian Forces.

I suspect that the Prime Minister's recognition of the significant possibility for error, with potentially tragic consequences, is one of the reasons he encouraged the creation of this committee and proposed the creation of an ombudsman as one of its first priorities. While I applaud the government's support for the creation of the ombudsman, it is important that the office be powerful, independent, and impartial. The current process is unlikely to produce that result.

When the DND/CF ombudsman was first created, the process was initially given to a general, who wrote up plans for the most ineffective and weak form of ombudsman--the organizational ombudsman--who had no powers of reporting or investigation and was far from independent. André Marin and his team then spent the next year fighting to create an independent office with true powers of investigation. Currently, an assistant deputy minister from Veterans Affairs has been assigned the task of carrying out consultations and drawing up a plan for the bill of rights and an ombudsman.

Frankly, allowing Veterans Affairs to design the office that will have power over them is like asking railways to redesign the Canadian Transportation Agency, or allowing banks to decide how best to restructure the Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions. It is potentially scandalous, and it is certainly neither accountable nor transparent. As the saying goes, justice must not only be done, it must also be seen to be done.

In order for an ombudsman and a bill of rights to be created properly and immediately, either an individual outside the process or an independent and competent committee could be promptly appointed to have 10 weeks or so to prepare the model for an ombudsman.

The VAC ombudsman should be a neutral third party. It should be an independent and impartial office ensuring fairness to all, including VAC employees involved in the process for the care, treatment, or re-establishment to civil life of any veteran or RCMP member, and the care of their families or survivors. The VAC ombudsman must strive to bring positive change to the entire community involved or affected in this process.

Oftentimes there is no reason to reinvent the wheel. André Marin's 1998 action plan, “The Way Forward”, provides groundwork that applies to a VAC ombudsman as well. An ombudsman for VAC would provide “ongoing opportunity to address complaints and concerns and to foster change when any injustice and unfairness exists”. The VAC ombudsman's role would be too “work with existing mechanisms in an impartial and independent manner”. The VAC ombudsman will “not only respect the existence and role of available avenues but reinforces them by allowing every reasonable opportunity” for VAC to resolve its own issues before the VAC ombudsman would formally intervene.

There are two basic roles that a VAC ombudsman would need to assume: individual representation and systemic monitoring and reporting. Individual representation could come about if a veteran falls through the cracks. As the website for the Ontario ombudsman states:

If you feel a provincial government organization has treated you in a way that is unfair, illegal, unreasonable, mistaken, or just plain wrong, you should bring your matter forward to the Ombudsman.

The feeling of injustice is crucial here. Perhaps the problem can be resolved with information or a quick telephone call to the department, or a referral to an administrative review. The goal is to provide assistance, not to worry about offending the mandate of the bureaucracy. We are often dealing with suffering individuals, not players in a chess tournament.

One of the roles of a VAC ombudsman would be to track the pattern of individual complaints, hence the role of systemic monitoring. If a critical mass is reached in the number of complaints, or seriousness and magnitude of the issue in any particular area, then the ombudsman could initiate a systemic investigation. This is perhaps the greatest value to the stakeholders, as such systemic monitoring and reporting can articulate the problem and recommend timely changes so that no further veterans or other stakeholders drive over the same pothole, let alone fall in.

Those able to access the ombudsman's office would include, but would not be limited to, veterans, serving CF and RCMP members, the families of all, their practitioners, VAC employees, and contract providers. The scope of the mandate should be relatively simple: all programs, policies, regulations, and legislation related to and/or handled by Veterans Affairs Canada. This is a view that is publicly supported by the Ontario Command of the Royal Canadian Legion:

While it is true that [Legion] members have access to representation at no cost and that there are multiple levels of redress within the disability pension and award system, [Ontario Command] support[s] an Ombudsman in all [my emphasis] affairs related to veterans.

Many observers have testified that it is precisely the injustices and inefficiencies in the disability pension decision, review, and appeal process that make this the most problematic of all VAC's programs. According to one of Canada's leading experts in veterans legislation, Harold Leduc, who now sits on the Veterans Review and Appeal Board:

Veterans Affairs Canada has a tried and tested pension adjudication system, which includes a review and appeal process. Currently this system is broken, as far too many files are being appealed through the Veterans Review and Appeal Board. The current broken system needs to be fixed if it is to be credible and if the programs of the new bill [C-45] are to build on this administrative process. Although [VAC] agree that the status quo is problematic, Veterans Affairs Canada will not fix the problem. Resolving this step in the process will result in fewer files being forwarded to VRAB...and would make the process more efficient, saving money, pain, and suffering. An ombudsman review could motivate Veterans Affairs to repair this broken process.

You will find in the reference material that we provide the first ever VOICE ombudsman's report on Veterans Affairs that we released last fall. Its hundreds of contributors agree with both the Ontario Command of the Legion and others that amongst other programs the pension system is indeed broken. Even the Auditor General said:

We found inconsistencies in the level and nature of the services provided by the Department in counselling applicants. For example, in some offices, we noted that counselling was provided to applicants in identifying service-related disabilities other than those initially put forth by the applicants. In other instances, we found that the focus was limited to the conditions identified by the applicants.

We have included a list of 14 considerations for a VAC ombudsman to be truly independent, impartial, and effective, most of which are the minimum required to create a real ombudsman rather than an impotent, neutered office with largely illusory powers.

Most notable are the powers of investigation, the power to report publicly on the ombudsman's own initiative, and the power to initiate investigations on the ombudsman's own motion. It is the power of accountability to the public that brings about change, as evidenced by recent scandals here in Ottawa and in the corporate world. If the ombudsman cannot rely on the power of moral suasion from the public, then the power to bring about change diminishes greatly.

Another mandatory consideration is protection for persons coming forward. This protection should be similar to the philosophy behind the whistle-blower legislation. Confidentiality is a given, but the resolution of individual cases often requires that names be revealed. Most veterans are reluctant to come forward for fear of losing the benefits from VAC upon which the veteran and the family may be totally dependent. I can personally tell you that the bureaucracy has a myriad of subtle and not so subtle ways of threatening or removing that security for those who have spoken out. Disabled veterans have to know that they will be free from review, audit, or reprisal of any form by VAC should that veteran come forward.

In order for the ombudsman to be truly independent, impartial, and effective, the office must have the necessary resources in both funding and manpower. I've included a list of required resources, mostly from an organizational perspective, to make a VAC ombudsman with teeth. A sufficient pool of skilled investigators is crucial here. You'll also note that an independent office requires a number of integrated sections such as finance, administration, record retrieval, and, one of the more important, an integrated communications cell to coordinate with the media and the public in accessing the necessary power of public opinion to bring about change.

There has been much talk of the ombudsman being an office of last resort. In principle, this would be true. However, considering that the last resort in many cases has not been reached for some World War II veterans and that many veterans of the conflicts in services of the 1990s are still being run through the system, a true last resort in VAC may never come. Therefore, a much more flexible approach must be taken. Should the complainant feel there is an injustice, there is no reason why he or she cannot talk with the ombudsman's office. The office can make referrals for effective review mechanisms or perhaps a telephone call or a letter to the appropriate directorate, which could save the complainants months, if not years, of review and appeal.

For example, the Ontario ombudsman is also called an office of last resort, but it received more than 23,000 complaints last year. Ninety-nine percent were resolved by referral, provision of information, ombudsman third-party intervention, or even a quick telephone call to the department concerned. Only 78 major investigations occurred, and there were between 100 to 200 field investigations.

There is no doubt that the details in setting up an office of the VAC ombudsman can be complicated; however, as André Marin stated:

Access to the office of the ombudsman could be granted simply by the Minister of Veterans Affairs signing a ministerial directive. Or, more appropriately, a Canadian Forces-Veterans Affairs ombudsman’s office having coordinate jurisdiction could be entrenched in statute, with the ombudsman reporting to the Minister of National Defence on DND/CF issues, and to the Minister of Veterans Affairs on issues related to Veterans Affairs Canada.

The truth is that departmental organization is a technical obstacle, not an impediment to doing the right thing. It is a maxim of good government that technical obstacles never be allowed to impede doing the right thing. Instead, technical obstacles should be managed and overcome.

For the ombudsman, doing it right means letting the right people do it. Giving the process more study than necessary or leaving it in the hands of the very bureaucracy that requires oversight is unjust and wrong. Independent agents can be brought on board with the stroke of a minister's pen. Timelines can be declared and made public. And the faith of the veterans and their families can be restored.

Election promises for the immediate creation of an ombudsman can be fulfilled. The creation of the ombudsman is an urgent matter, yet we must learn from the missteps of the new Veterans Charter and take the steps to ensure that our new VAC ombudsman is powerful, independent, and impartial. We must ensure that our VAC ombudsman is created right, and created right away.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman and honourable members of the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs. We look forward to your questions.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Anders

Thank you very much for your presentation. I'll go so far as to say that of all the presentations we've heard so far, that was one of the more detailed ones we've heard, about proposals for how to set this up.

Mr. Cuzner, you're first up for the Liberals. Welcome to the committee.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I'm looking forward to doing some good work with this committee, a very important committee. Certainly, the presentation today was excellent and very detailed. I thought some great points were brought forward.

With the office, there is a risk, some concern for the potential for another layer of bureaucracy. Could I get your comments on that?

As well, you made comments on some of the appeal processes and the fact that they appear to be broken, or you've stated that they are broken. Are there processes we would be able to dissolve, i.e., there would be no need for some of the processes now in place? Could you elaborate on those first two points?

3:45 p.m.

As an Individual

Sean Bruyea

Thank you, sir.

With reference to the question about more bureaucracy, in government we must always be concerned about creating more bureaucracy than necessary. However, there is a misconception in some circles about what an ombudsman does--I've heard that comment before.

An ombudsman exists outside the bureaucracy, as a sort of mail clerk who's able to look at the volume of mail coming in and put it in the right spot, and to see from the outside the big picture, what needs to be done. So it actually increases the efficiency of the bureaucracy.

I can see real money savings, and I can certainly see the debt of dignity and respect for the sacrifice we owe our veterans will be upheld by ensuring more rapid response and systemic improvement.

As far as the existing system, the legislation, the Pension Act I find is a superior act. It's generously written to help support the veteran, to give the benefit of the doubt; the programs allow the veteran to be protected. Regulations and policies within the department are so written. The problem is they're not being followed, and there's no one to enforce the following of those regulations.

When it existed as a subcommittee, the committee heard that VRAB does not track any of its decisions. There's no ability to make systemic improvements to what is sitting at VRAB--right now I believe 7,000 files are backlogged. There's no way of understanding why so many files are going to VRAB. No one's sitting down and tracking that.

An ombudsman could track that. An ombudsman could make the recommendations at the departmental level and perhaps at the VRAB level, so that VRAB has the power--and I think this is open to consideration--to say to the department, “You know what? You should have ruled on this the first time.” And they could send it back, rather than cutting off the options of appeal and review by having the board review it. It's an expensive process to send it to VRAB when an administrative review at the department could solve the problem quickly.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS

So there's the sheer volume of the backlog of the 7,000 files. Is there a concern as well that some of the work that's coming out of there is rubber-stamping previous decisions, or is it a lack of in-depth follow-up? Is it the quality of the work that's being done on the files as well, or...?

3:50 p.m.

As an Individual

Sean Bruyea

Sir, at the VRAB level or at the departmental level?

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS

At the departmental level.

3:50 p.m.

As an Individual

Sean Bruyea

I'd like to read a quote that was--

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS

Both levels.

3:50 p.m.

As an Individual

Sean Bruyea

For sure.

The Woods committee noted--and I'll have to find that for you in a second. The problem is there's still far too much secrecy at the pension adjudication system within the department. We don't know who makes those decisions and we don't know on what basis they make those decisions; there's no consistency in terms of the documents or letters that are sent out after the decisions are made.

That problem also exists at the VRAB level, where there's far too much secrecy. In 1967, the Woods report noted that the process has to be opened up to more transparency and accountability, and 40 years later we're saying the same thing. I think an ombudsman would...it has to be the vehicle to do that because all other attempts have failed.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS

I take from your comments and your presentation as well that you'd like to see this totally independent ombudsman. Do you see any benefit in having some type of connection with the ombudsman for the Department of National Defence? Is there any synergy there, or should it be totally independent?

3:50 p.m.

As an Individual

Sean Bruyea

That's a very important consideration. If they exist in an accordant jurisdiction, then the linking is not a problem in terms of cooperation between DND, CF, and Veterans Affairs Canada. However, if they are to be both independent and separate, then there has to be a liaison between the two because there is much overlap. In terms of clientele, the serving members in the CF could easily be Veterans Affairs Canada clients, so it will require, in any form of ombudsman's office, that the two will have to work closely together.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS

You had indicated inconsistencies in some of the pension supports and services. Are there any consistencies in the inconsistencies? Are they consistent by region of the country? Are they by campaign? Are they by maybe the nature of the disability or the challenge that the veteran might face? Is there anything like that, or are they just all over the place?

3:50 p.m.

As an Individual

Sean Bruyea

I don't want to take a broad-brush approach because there are some excellent employees in Veterans Affairs Canada, and, from what I understand, some of the people on VRAB are excellent people.

There is a problem, perhaps, with management of the entire system. The consistency that we see is that there seems to be a real lack of ability, especially at the headquarters level, in understanding what it is to deal with a disabled client. That is ironic since that is the reason for the department's existence.

Do you want to comment?

3:50 p.m.

Perry Gray As an Individual

If I may, I'd like to read a quote. This is a quote from Deputy Minister Jack Stagg to the parliamentary subcommittee, this august body's predecessor, and this is what he said:

What we found in the pension system was it was a kind of perverse system, in effect, because we had quite a large number.... We took a number of files between 1998 and 2002 and looked to see how many people were coming back to us for additional pensions. People were making this their life's work. We had people coming back anywhere from 9 to 17 or 18 times, looking to boost a pension.

Mr. Stagg added:

We try, of course, in Veterans Affairs, to be fair and to judge rationally how sick or how disabled someone is from the services they rendered for Canada. They will tell us they are sicker than what we believe--

--and I must emphasize “what we believe”--

--or what they can prove, and it becomes a kind of adversarial battle.

I'd like to point out to all the committee members that the basis for any application by a veteran to the Department of Veterans Affairs is medical information provided by professional medical practitioners. It is not based on what I may think I need. The big complaint we have--and it points directly to what you said about consistencies within the inconsistencies--is that they are taking these assessments made by doctors and saying that they are not true to the extent to which the doctor has stated. In many cases it's very difficult for the practitioners to define in reasonable terms that are acceptable to the department exactly what the extent of the problem is.

I will give you a specific example of this. According to Minister Thompson, there are practically 9,000 veterans who have been diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder or related operational stress injuries. According to DND, the majority of these people suffer from a long-term disability that severely restricts their employment outside of the military, and yet these 9,000 people often are assessed at a disability level of 25% to 30%, and, based on what Mr. Stagg said, they then have to go back between 9 and 17 to 18 times and prove that the original assessment was unfair.

I hope you can understand why this is a very traumatic experience for people, and it very well illustrates the problems veterans experience currently with the appeal and review system.

Thank you, sir.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Rodger Cuzner Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS

Mr. Chairman--

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Rob Anders

Mr. Cuzner, you've already had 10 minutes, so no.

Monsieur Perron.

3:55 p.m.

Bloc

Gilles-A. Perron Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Perry, Sean and Tom, thank you for being here.

We're not here to put veterans on trial, but to talk about the ombudsman. When you start telling me things are working well or not at the Department of Veterans Affairs, you lose me, and I get a little frustrated.

You didn't mince your words in your presentation. Thank you for that. It was interesting and sincere, but who's your ombudsman's boss? Who does he report to?

3:55 p.m.

As an Individual

Sean Bruyea

My wife.

3:55 p.m.

Bloc

Gilles-A. Perron Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC

It could be.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Bev Shipley Conservative Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON

Good answer.

3:55 p.m.

As an Individual

Sean Bruyea

Je m'excuse.

Is it possible to get the question of Monsieur Perron clarified? The boss of what?