Veterans Affairs Committee on June 15th, 2006

[Betty Hinton, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Thank you very much for coming.

I know what a complex issue this is and how difficult it is for people to understand. You've indicated that the department is serious about making changes to this program to better suit the needs of the veterans it serves. In all fairness, I think the committee would like to know why you are making changes now. Other than as a result of a change in government, why is the department looking at going this route now?

By the way, I happen to agree with the direction the department is going--but I'd like to know why.

[Brian Ferguson]

Certainly. I think it goes back to something Mr. Stoffer and Mr. Perron said. Canada is in the midst of a major demographic change, with an aging population. We're certainly experiencing that with the age of our veterans, and the impact on them and on their families is quite significant.

I think the timing is really right from that perspective. If we don't take appropriate measures, we could end up down the road with, I would say, excessive service issues for these people, and we would not be providing the best service at the best value.

I think it's all part of the aging demographic for our veterans. We've had experience with the aging of senior veterans over the years, and I think we've now reached another stage in that, Madam Hinton. We're really looking forward to the review, actually, from that perspective.

[Betty Hinton, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

You mentioned at the beginning of your presentation today that one of the first acts of the minister was to call for a comprehensive review of the health care portion of the VIP program, which is actually the largest part of it. I'm not sure what parts of it you can share in terms of progress at this point in time. Maybe there's nothing to report to the committee level at this point in time, but I applaud going in that direction, because I too have been hearing from many veterans for many years about this problem.

Mr. Cuzner made reference earlier today about a letter to Joyce. I could probably shed some light on that, if you don't mind, Mr. Ferguson. I wrote the policy for the Conservative Party regarding veterans because I feel very strongly about this issue. We made it very clear as a party that we were going in a specific direction to support veterans.

One of the things we learned soon after taking office was that there was a 7,500-case backlog. We had to deal with Agent Orange and Agent Purple. There is the ombudsman and the bill of rights that are in front of this committee right now, and as the gentlemen here from the department have pointed out, we're looking at this comprehensive health care review.

Overall, in the case of the cost factor, you mentioned it's less expensive. That's a very crude way of putting it, but that's the bottom line: it's less expensive for us to be more inclusive in this VIP program than it is to put our veterans into long-term care.

Do you have any data to back up the difference in the costs? I know it differs from province to province. What would be the savings, aside from the fact that these veterans would be able to be more independent, stay in their own homes, and probably be healthier in the long run?

[Brian Ferguson]

We have done analyses of this over the years. Our best guesstimates at this point--and I'll come back to why we're calling it that--are somewhere in the order of one-sixth to one-eighth of the cost of going into a long-term care facility.

I don't want to say that's the definitive figure because there are policy analysts who will say that those are just our costs; maybe there are costs that accrued in the province we were dealing in that we're not aware of and that we actually haven't counted. That's one of the reasons we're doing this study in Ontario--to actually roll up all the costs so that we'll have a definitive study that either makes the case or refutes the case.

My strong belief is that it's going to very strongly make the case. It's clear that the veterans independence program and programs like it have a huge payoff--not only on the cost side, but also, as you mentioned, Ms. Hinton, in the benefit of staying at home contributing to a healthier lifestyle. I think it's a very important study.

The other thing I would like to mention is that in comparing the VIP program of keeping people at home versus putting them into long-term care, it may be possible to look at other arrangements that may be more costly along the road, but those arrangements may still be less costly than the long-term care solution. Mr. Perron mentioned, for example, what's going on in Quebec, and other provinces are also quite innovative on that front.

[Betty Hinton, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Do I have any time left?

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

You have two minutes.

[Betty Hinton, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

I'll pass the two minutes to Mr. Sweet.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Mr. Sweet is next, then.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

One of the things that I like to hear about is this action of proactive screening. Could you give me an idea of the number of calls that have actually been made, and how many responses you went through with veterans who said they weren't aware of the community services and hadn't taken them up?

[Brian Ferguson]

I can't give you precise numbers at this table, but we'll get those numbers for you, sir.

What I can tell you is that we had a small unit with an administrative job to do. I think there were about a dozen people in the unit. Their job each year was to ensure that those who were receiving benefits were actually still alive and in need of those benefits. Through training we turned that unit from an administrative process into a unit making these phone calls out to these individuals and actually doing this proactive screening.

My guess is that we probably cover only about 25% of the aging veterans who really could use this proactive service. It's an issue for the department to see if we can find ways to do it, but I can tell you that where we do it, it pays dividends in an amazing way, because we have found a lot of cases of people who were in need of service.

One of the things we used this unit for, by the way, was to deal with some of the natural catastrophe events that have happened in the country, such as the power outage in Ontario. We called some 5,000 of our clients through that proactive screening unit to see how they were doing at the time.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Is this ongoing?

[Brian Ferguson]

The proactive screening unit is ongoing. It has a program of phoning out to people under certain criteria. But I don't want to leave you with the impression that we cover all our veterans that way; we cover as many as we can within the resources.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

When did this begin?

[Brian Ferguson]

It began, I would say, about three years ago.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Bang on time, Mr. Sweet.

Now we'll go over to Mr. Valley.

[Roger Valley, Liberal, Kenora, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for the presentation.

When we see it all put together here, although we've seen this information in our offices, it does clear up some of the muddy water. When you're an aging veteran, it's difficult; they don't understand why the guy across the street is getting it, and it's because of the stage of life that they're in.

I just wanted to ask one question. I wouldn't want to say we're confused, but my friend here and I can't even decide how to spell our first names, so you can understand where the question is coming from--he didn't even hear that.

An issue came up when the minister was here, and I wasn't clear on the answer. You may have provided it already, and I apologize if I missed it. Is there a difference between a veteran's home and a veteran's residence? That was brought up when the minister was here.

[Brian Ferguson]

There is no difference I'm aware of, but certainly we'll double-check.

[Roger Valley, Liberal, Kenora, ON]

I may have misheard, but I think the indication was that if the veteran was in his own home, everything was fine, but if he was in an apartment or a condominium or something like that--

[Brian Ferguson]

Oh, I see what you're getting at. Yes, the eligibility for the VIP program does change, depending on where you are.

[Roger Valley, Liberal, Kenora, ON]

Is that one of the things you'll be looking at in your review?

[Brian Ferguson]

Indeed we will.

[Roger Valley, Liberal, Kenora, ON]

They would still be eligible for a lot of these services--and I think you listed $207 million for the cost of home care--inside their own homes, whether that was an apartment, a condominium, or a residence on a street.

Another question I have is about the income-qualified category and who is eligible for what. Can you tell me where these figures came from? Is there a set figure you use, or are they adjusted? I need to know if...there are different needs tests for different things. How is it arrived at, and has it been adjusted?

[Ken Miller]

The income-qualified route is just one route in. The other, of course, is in relation to pension conditions.

The income-qualified route ties back to our war veterans allowance program. Those rates are established and indexed annually, and they change over time. If an individual's income is below that ceiling or that threshold, the person would be qualified for the VIP program by virtue of low income, if the person is that type of veteran.

[Roger Valley, Liberal, Kenora, ON]

Are those pensions and everything adjusted as inflation goes and as society changes?

[Ken Miller]

The rates are adjusted annually. An indexing formula is applied to them.