Veterans Affairs Committee on Feb. 28th, 2008

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Just for the edification of committee members, I believe he's in Ottawa now. We could have had him as a witness, but we hadn't approved it. That's the purpose of this meeting, in a sense.

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

Then there would have been no cost.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

I know. Timing is everything.

He's here right now, so we would have to re-invite him.

[Brent St. Denis, Liberal, Algoma—Manitoulin—Kapuskasing, ON]

With respect to witnesses like Lieutenant-Colonel Dave Grossman, there appear to be things that are DND from one perspective and Veterans Affairs from another. There is this grey zone, transition zone, or elements of the piece that, depending on whether the person is in active service or retired, are either DND or Veterans Affairs. I think we make a mistake by drawing a black-and-white division between what's DND and what's not.

If there is a veterans perspective on an issue that appears to be DND on the face of it but we can see--for example, with Mr. Grossman--that learning to kill affects you later when you're a veteran.... That was the whole point of the intervention at the Shearwater meeting. It was an excellent meeting, Peter, thank you. Rather than having that silo prevent us from understanding something happening to a future veteran--a current military person--let's consider anything reasonable that has the potential to be a veterans issue. Then we can sort it out later. If we make a DND recommendation and feel strongly about it, we'll send it to the DND chairman and say, “Look, we've come up with this. Would your committee consider such and such? Or maybe a joint meeting with the DND committee would be appropriate.” Rather than let silos separate us, let's look at these as an opportunity.

For example, I don't know if it makes sense to have this person appear again, but she was certainly a compelling witness at the Shearwater meeting. Dr. McKinnon, who is with the Royal United Services Institute, was a military doctor and is now retired. She specializes in veterans. She recommends that there be a medical transition service. It's debatable what that would entail, but when a military person leaves the military, they're really lost in finding a doctor who understands what they went through, if there are any issues more than just normal health issues. She gets all kinds of referrals from other doctors who don't know what to do with these new veterans because their mental or physical conditions aren't in the normal range of things.

I would argue that if there's any association with a veteran's concern, even if it's in the active military, we shouldn't dismiss it out of hand.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Okay.

Now we'll go to Mr. Valley.

[Roger Valley, Liberal, Kenora, ON]

Thank you.

One thing that was made very plain to us is that the serving men and women have been trained not to speak to us to any great degree. They deal with issues inside the military, and they were surprised and almost shocked that we were doing this. They couldn't believe it. They were very open and candid about it because every one of them, even if they're 20 years old, can be ours after one accident. Once they can't provide a certain level of duty, if they're injured for a year, they're out; they're ours. These people wanted to make sure they had the chance, and that's why they're eager to see us.

To Betty's point, they want to talk to us because it's not about the military. They're not going to complain about Defence or anything else. They want to talk to us about what it's going to be like for them when they're veterans, whether it's unfortunately a year away or a number of years away.

[Betty Hinton, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

I'm not worried about complaints.

[Roger Valley, Liberal, Kenora, ON]

I'm just saying that's why they want to talk to us. They were surprised. They've never had the opportunity before to come to a committee and talk about what their future will look like with their pensions, how they're treated, and if they'll have doctors or not. It was quite compelling when they said, “This is a unique opportunity for us. We've never had this chance before.” For that reason we have to consider everyone.

I may be corrected by Gilles because he'll probably be speaking next, but I believe Sergeant Max Peddle served for 28 years, retired, and went back to the reserves because he could not afford to live. He had to do something, and he decided he'd sooner do something in a uniform. That's why he has served for more than 17 years now in the reserves. He believes in it, he wanted to work, and that was the only thing he could do. He could not live on his pension. That's one of the reasons why he's back working.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Okay.

Now we go to Mr. Shipley, who's been waiting patiently and quietly, bless his heart.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Thank God for another half hour.

I don't disagree with what's been said, and I would never take away the credibility of the people you saw and talked to. I have a concern about how we're going to determine someone who is in the forces and someone who's a veteran when we get into the discussions of our responsibility. It's not that it isn't good.

I've been listening to Brent, and when he mentioned...I think it was Dr. McKinnon, that's who I think the witness should be. That witness would have the exposure to the persons who are in the transition. That's what we're trying to learn about.

Actually, I just talked to David about the witnesses he had asked for. Again, I've nothing against wanting to have credible witnesses, whether they're serving as active members or are veterans. My concern is that if we're going to start talking about witnesses in the transition, then we need to be talking to the doctors, the people who are in Defence and in Veterans Affairs, to talk about those professional people who are involved. They're the ones who talk not to one person but to all the people or a number of the people who will be having trouble.

Many will come to us not without having had an issue. Many of them will have had some sort of contact with someone, either in Defence or in Veterans Affairs, once they cross over that line.

Back in the fall there were those talking about that transition, about the active person coming into being a veteran and the amount of work and the amount of correspondence, the amount of information they were trying to get to someone in the armed forces before they became a vet. It would seem to me that's where we need to be starting.

I am concerned that if we start opening it up to individuals who will come in without having had departmental...or having the experts and those people who are involved in the medical field.... I think those who are talking to them in the transition, dealing with them in the transition, are the ones who should be coming here first.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Okay. Thank you, Mr. Shipley.

Now, just to let everybody know, next will be Monsieur Perron and then Mrs. Hinton, who's temporarily gone.

At this point, since Mr. St. Denis and Mr. Shipley have mentioned Dr. Heather McKinnon--I believe the name is--I've tossed her name onto the list.

Just so everybody knows, the list is as follows: Sergeant Max Peddle, Colleen Calvert, Lieutenant-Colonel Dave Grossman, Lieutenant-General Maisonneuve, Commander Sean McKee, the Surgeon General people--with regard to the budgetary estimates--and now Dr. Heather McKinnon.

Those are the budget estimate witnesses, right? They're the same thing? Yes. We have it written down differently. We both say budget.

Monsieur Perron, you're on deck.

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

I'd like to come back to Max Peddle. We have to consider what life is like for a war veteran living in the boondocks, in other words, a very remote area where there are practically no services. Évain, the small village in Abitibi where I was born, is a good example. We need to think about how an individual of 75, 78 or 80 years can be uprooted from a place where they spent their entire life, and be sent to hospital in a major urban centre.

I have to tell you something: I broke down in Goose Bay because my father chose suicide over moving to a big city. I apologize, but this is very emotional for me.

Another point: Max Peddle works with aboriginals. He wanted to bring an aboriginal man out of his home area where he would go fishing, and so on. He wanted to save him, but the man refused to move to Halifax. He let himself die by not taking his medication, among other things. That is experience. What is being done for the aboriginal war veterans who live on the shores of James Bay or Hudson Bay? What is being done to assist aboriginals living in your territory, Mr. Valley? Mr. Valley's riding is home to several aboriginal reserves. What services are provided? By listening to Max Peddle we will be able to get an idea of what is being done, what is not being done, what can or cannot be improved, etc. I know that this involves costs but I am committed to having Max Peddle come before us because I know his personal experience will leave an impression on you.

Furthermore, my friend Claude Bachand, who is the Bloc Québécois representative on the National Defence Committee, told me today that next week that committee will begin a study on post-traumatic stress syndrome. Isn't it time that our committee chair spoke to the national defence committee chair to tell him that we've been discussing post-traumatic stress syndrome for more than two years?

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

He sits in the chair right next to me in the House of Commons, and we talk about it.

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

I know Rick. They would certainly have something to learn from our experience. We could send them testimony, for example.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

The clerk has a suggestion. The clerk talked about having a committee meeting jointly between National Defence and Veterans Affairs. You know what? That's a lot of cats to herd, and that kind of defeats the purpose.

I can tell Mrs. Hinton is not impressed. We're just nixing that idea.

In response to something Monsieur Perron said, the aboriginal veterans group is coming on March 13; we'll have them testifying here.

We'll go now to Mrs. Hinton, and I hope that's the last person.

Mr. Perron, are you done?

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Yes, I'm over it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Yes, I sensed that. The microphone went silent, so I assumed that.

Now we'll go to Mrs. Hinton. I'm hoping, then, that at that stage we can make some decisions on this.

Go ahead, Mrs. Hinton.

[Betty Hinton, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

I've listened very carefully, and I'm rather convinced now that this Sergeant Peddle has something to offer. My only concern is the one I raised earlier, which is that I don't want to muddy that line and have someone decide there's no need to have two separate committees and that they can go back to the way they were, which is for Veterans Affairs to be the poor orphan of the defence committee.

I suppose I could be satisfied to know that Sergeant Max Peddle is going to limit his testimony to veterans issues, and that would cover the problem.

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

He is the president of the Canadian Legion, by the way.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

I sense there's consensus.

Mr. Sweet says he's going to be short and sweet.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

That's right, in the spirit of unity and unanimity, and all of that other stuff, if the defence committee is going to be doing a study on post-traumatic stress disorder, then why don't you remove the one witness I suggested, Commander Sean McKee, and leave him for the defence committee, as he's active? Lieutenant-General Michel Maisonneuve, a retired three-star general, would be good to have before our committee.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Okay, since you suggested those witnesses, you're allowed to withdraw them, in my humble opinion.

So the list is as it stands—and I sense we have agreement from Mrs. Hinton on this—

[Betty Hinton, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

He might think so, yes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Well, first off, I'm going to let you know how I was going to do this. For the ones whom nobody complained about, we would just have said they were good, and for the ones on whom there was disagreement, we might have had to vote.

Anyhow, I sense that having Mr. Peddle is okay with everybody. Now that we've all talked it out, I sense that's all right.

Nobody even mentioned Colleen Calvert, so I think we're probably okay with having her here.

With regard to Lieutenant-General Michel Maisonneuve, I sense everybody is okay with having him.

We're skipping Commander Sean McKee.

We are going to go with the Surgeon General. I think everybody is okay with that.

And for the people with regard to the budgetary estimates, I think everybody is okay with them.

I sense people are okay with having Dr. Heather McKinnon here.

Now let's move back to the subject of the American Lieutenant-Colonel, Dave Grossman. I sense there was some disagreement over having him here. Do people want the clerk to ask him whether or not he's willing to come?

[An hon. member]

Yes.