Veterans Affairs Committee on Feb. 28th, 2008

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

You also sent them to the physician in Shearwater, so you sent them to both physicians.

[The Clerk]

Yes, the email was sent.

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

I want to notify everybody that next we will have Mr. Stoffer, Mr. Sweet, and Mr. Valley, but before we do that, Mr. Perron, I want to make sure I clearly understand one of your points. I'm expecting Mrs. Hinton will say this is more of a military or army or DND matter than it is a Veterans Affairs matter, so I'm offering that as a precursor to her.

Having said that, I'm intrigued by some of the ways they talked about dealing with the stress. You mentioned some forms of harassment or abuse and drinking and drugs.

I remember one time I saw some American soldiers who were involved in Iraq being interviewed by Dennis Miller. They talked about going back after missions and actually engaging in hand-to-hand combat as a way of using organized aggression to work out their own stress.

Is that touching on it in any way? They were dealing with it that way.

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

I think training is provided to teach young servicemen and women to behave appropriately in a theatre of operations. For example, if they are posted to a Muslim country, they must not remove a woman's veil or drink alcohol. Training can also be provided on interpersonal behaviour, for example, in a case where a serviceman assaults a servicewoman. This is non-military behavioural training, and it already exists. I think that post-traumatic stress disorder falls into exactly the same category. Therefore, instead of spending two and a half hours in training before deployment, as Dr. Descôteaux from Valcartier told us here, they could spend 25, 30 or 40 hours, because these training programs are offered on a yearly basis.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

All right. I think I have a better handle on it.

Now we'll go over to Mr. Stoffer.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I have several points.

A few weeks ago I attended a public accounts meeting at which the Auditor General appeared with Major General Semianiw and the Surgeon General of DND. They talked specifically about post-traumatic stress and the fact that 27% of the troops coming back have a mental or physical injury. They indicated that at this time there aren't enough financial and in some cases human resources to deal with the influx. The clerk may want to get copies of those blues and hand them out to the committee, and at a future date the committee may want to invite them in order to ascertain how they're doing, or what they're doing, at the top level to improve in terms of the Auditor General's recommendations.

The other day in Halifax, the CO indicated the book On Killing, by Lieutenant Colonel Dave Grossman. I read the book. It is absolutely fascinating. It's everything we've been talking about--how you would take an ordinary kid out of Medicine Hat or Musquodoboit Harbour or Kamloops and train him to be a killer, and then understanding the psychological aspects. Some of them deal with it very well. Some of them go completely off the rails.

This gentleman is a former lieutenant colonel himself. The book is absolutely fascinating. Mr. Chairman, I'm looking to you for advice; I would recommend making a notice of motion that everyone in this committee should be able to receive one, because it would be....

You can get it at Chapters. It is $19, and I will guarantee that it will open your eyes as to what happens and the history of it from World War I to Korea and how it went. It reflects a bit upon the Canadian snipers, if you remember, who were doing those shots from two kilometres away when they were working with the United States. Then Maclean's did an article on them, and many of them are now out of the service with PTSD. This book explains what happens to people of that nature, and it is very worthwhile to read about it.

The other matter we heard about was that every single person we met said Cyprus was the best thing that happened to them. It's a three-day detoxification--no, they got intoxicated, actually. For those three days they know they're not home yet, but they're out of there. It's like a three-day catch-your-breath period of being able to talk to your buddies and talk to people up in the military. We heard that the military did a fantastic job in addressing their concerns on what they may expect in the future and so on. I don't know if we could ever move a motion to go to Cyprus to actually see that, but I just want to put on the record that it is outstanding. Maybe we can get one of those people who go to Cyprus and instruct the soldiers to come before the committee to let us know exactly how they do that. When someone comes off the Hercules, or whatever the plane is, in Cyprus and they talk to them, what kind of process is it? What forms do they fill out? That would be very helpful.

I have another concern. The other day I met with a U.S. soldier, and the United States is now conducting an inquiry regarding the use of anthrax. As you know, anthrax was the vaccine in the first Gulf War, and how many soldiers...? There is no definitive proof yet, but there is speculation that maybe, just maybe, anthrax may have something to do with some psychological problems that some of the soldiers are experiencing. The United States is undertaking a review of any medical evidence that it may or may not have; it's on the website. I'm not sure if it is something we want to look into. I know a lot of our veterans from the first Gulf War that we speak to here have indicated that maybe it was the inoculations they received that caused some of their problems. We're not quite sure.

My last point is that Betty Hinton was very generous the other day in donating some posters for the decorations here. I'm just seeking clarification, Mr. Chairman: how are we coming along with the dedication of this room in making it a bit more welcoming to veterans, somewhat like room 362 in the East Block, the so-called “war room”?

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

I just asked our clerk about the book On Killing by Dave Grossman. He is going to look into the situation. We do have funds, but we don't really know a precedent on that type of thing. With regard to that issue, I'll just be blunt, committee members. Sometimes we are given books around this place, and it's one thing to be given the book. We may, at some point down the road, want to think about having somebody come in to talk about it, because just because you get a book, you don't necessarily have time to read it, right? That's just an idea.

With regard to your comments on Cyprus, we did not have success, as you well know, in going to the final destination, as it were, but Cyprus is kind of a go-between, if you will. I think if you were to make a motion like that, we'd see how the parties felt around the table, and it's just a matter of producing it to the liaison committee. If we're not going into an election, then I think we may get something like that as a go-ahead.

On your issue of the dedication of the room, we have in a sense just let it sit at the side, because for a while we were forced out of these meeting locations because of the procedure and House affairs committee. Now we occasionally get it back; I don't know how regular and consistent that will be, but we often get bumped.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Mr. Chairman, the premise is that when other committees or other people come into this room, they will know this is the veterans room. It provides awareness to those members and visitors that they are in a pretty special room.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

I think we can probably dedicate some time at some point to look at some of the art we want to put up and maybe make a selection. I think that's a noble idea.

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

On that topic...

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Go ahead on this point, Mr. Perron.

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

How can we ensure that this room is recognized as being the Veterans Affairs room by the House? Is there a way to do so, or is this recognition unofficial?

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Just so everybody knows, and in response to you, Mr. Perron, the wording has been recognized by the Speaker in the House of Commons. The one way you take it a step beyond, I suppose, is to have a formal plaque such as the war room has in the East Block. That would be the next stage in the process.

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Oh, it's already recognized as the vets' room?

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

We already have that recognition, sir, so now it's just a matter of carrying through with some visible, tangible effects of it, rather than just having something in Hansard and being recognized by the Speaker.

Now we'll go on to Mr. Sweet.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I don't want to interrupt the flow, because I saw that although we had an agenda, we're actually on a general debriefing about the travel. For my part, I would like to say how much I regret that I was not able to travel, but I'm hoping to in April. Hopefully my responsibilities won't be to the degree that they were on public accounts, so that I'll be able to do that.

We have a list of possible suggested witnesses, and I just wanted to add two names, if I could. One is Lieutenant-General Michel Maisonneuve, who is presently the president of the military college at Saint-Jean-sur-Richelieu. He had an esteemed career with the military in the armoured division and served in Bosnia and Herzegovina. The other witness we could add, if we're going to call more witnesses, is Commander Sean McKee of the Royal Hamilton Light Infantry; he is the commander of that regiment right now, but he has also served in Afghanistan.

[Betty Hinton, Conservative, Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC]

Is he a serving member or a veteran?

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

He is serving right now; Lieutenant-Colonel Michel Maisonneuve is retired.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

The clerk is saying that it is in a sense a motion, and that's fine. In a sense we are adding it.

Is that a motion that we had? Yes.

Tell me if I'm wrong. My reading would be that he is just adding this to the list, when we have yet to determine who we're actually going to decide we're going to hear. Okay, that's fine.

Mr. Sweet, you had Lieutenant-General Maisonneuve, but who was the second one?

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

I'll be fine with that, but there's another person who served in Afghanistan and has witnessed a lot, and that's Commander Sean McKee.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Thank you, sir. Fair enough.

He served in Afghanistan. I'm mostly making notes for my own edification.

I also wanted to let the committee know, in response to what Mr. Stoffer was asking earlier about the book by Dave Grossman, that if a motion is adopted by the committee, then in a sense it's actionable to go ahead and purchase books for the committee.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Does he have to have 48 hours?

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

If you're on the subject at matter, you can go ahead and make the motion.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Then I make a motion for discussion, obviously, that the committee be authorized to purchase for each member and the researcher and the clerk a copy of the book On Killing: The Psychological Costs of Learning to Kill, by Lieutenant-Colonel Dave Grossman of the U.S. Army.