Veterans Affairs Committee on March 13th, 2008

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. We're starting a few minutes late because we wanted to make sure we had enough for full quorum, and because of the delay in the votes in the House of Commons.

Today we have witnesses with us from the National Aboriginal Veterans Association. I had a chance to meet you gentlemen on the way in. Alastair MacPhee is the policy adviser, and Claude Petit is the president.

As for the way it generally works, you have 20 minutes. You can share that time however you see fit. You can take 10 minutes each, or if you want 20 minutes for one and zero for the other, that's your prerogative.

Then we'll go to our predetermined list of partisan questions, in a sense. We all have that laid out. There will be two different rounds. We'll start sounding off, and I'll introduce them as they come.

The floor is yours.

[Claude Petit, President, National Aboriginal Veterans Association]

Good afternoon, Rob and members of the standing committee. Thank you for inviting us to make our presentation to your committee.

I'm going to give you some background on the National Aboriginal Veterans Association.

This organization wasn't formed by aboriginal veterans themselves; it was formed by government. At that time, Ron Irwin called me at home and asked if it was a good idea to have all the aboriginal veterans under one umbrella. I figured it was a good idea, so we went ahead and brought all the aboriginal groups into Ottawa and formed this organization. Before that, there was the National Indian Veterans Association, so we changed the name. We spent a week here changing the name to the National Aboriginal Veterans Association.

Also, we were incorporated at the national level, so we're incorporated federally, and we do get funding. So the first nations, Métis, non-status, and Inuit come under our umbrella. But as you're probably aware, they start breaking off. They are having their own organizations. It's pretty hard to keep them together.

Anyway, we do get funding from the federal interlocutor, very little funding, to have our AGM meeting and also a bit of administration. We have a newsletter—I didn't bring any copies along, but I should have—that I try to send out to people in Parliament on what we're doing.

We're also involved with the other aboriginal groups, such as the Legion, the Korea Veterans Association, and Betterness and Equalness for Veterans, which is an organization from Saskatoon that was formed to help veterans. Also, the Korea veterans do a lot of work for the veterans who are disabled, right across Canada.

We also constructed a monument. When we started this organization, we had three things in mind: a scholarship fund; the monument, which is in the park across from the Lord Elgin Hotel, in Confederation Park; and.... We'll be talking about this later on. Mr. MacPhee will be explaining some of the budgets.

We sent in a budget to finish that monument off. There's a photo that will go around. Take a look at the way it's supposed to be finished, and it's not. What we're asking for is to get it finished. Now it runs over $200,000 to get the plates on. Those plates on that monument are scenes of the First World War, the Second World War, the Korean War, and peacekeeping, which make the four corners.

We did get some money from the interlocutor to finish the lighting. If you go there at night, you'll see it's a nice monument. It's lit up. So we did get that done, but we're still asking for money to finish the monument.

My part of the job, after we got organized, was the monument, and that's what I did. I went around and raised funds for the monument. I think I wrote about 500 or 600 letters to different organizations. We got it finished through Heritage Canada to where it's at now.

But the other big thing is the scholarship fund. That was supposed to be under our control, but our name is not even mentioned now. I met the girl who's in charge of it now. I forget her name, but I met her in Victoria at a meeting and told her about this. We're not even mentioned, and it was our fund.

If you look back, there was $1 million given to start that fund. The mechanics of it were supposed to be that the interest on that money was to pay for the scholarships. Mind you, now it's the achievement foundation. It's a good fund. I'm not knocking it, because it's doing a lot for the aboriginal students. But it was supposed to be under our control—that's the problem—and it was supposed to be for aboriginal veterans, students, and their kids, running down the list. But it didn't happen. We're not even mentioned in it, so we lost that.

We're looking at maybe starting a new scholarship fund, but I know what it takes. I did the monument, and it took me two years to get it to where it is. There's a lot of work, especially if you don't have the funds and everything else that goes along with them.

So that's where we are right now with the scholarship fund.

The other thing is the contributions to the first nations or aboriginal veterans. They were given $20,000 last year or the year before, or $39 million all told for 1,800 veterans. If you recall, the aboriginal people are entrenched in the Constitution. We're still aboriginal people and we were left out. It's like everything else.

We have submissions in to government to get funding the same as the Hong Kong veterans and the merchant navy. That's fair. That's why I'm saying that: it's fair. If you didn't serve overseas, you didn't get the money; it was $15,000 for serving overseas, if you were in action, and $7,000 if you were here in Canada serving and ready to go. I think that's fair; for us, that was fair.

We never even got that. The Chinese and Japanese got the $20,000 also. The first nations people got the $20,000, and they had to jump through hoops to get it. They had to come from overseas directly into the reservation in order to get it.

I know that because there was a guy from northern Ontario who was married and had two kids, and he didn't qualify because he didn't go directly to the reserve after coming back from overseas—he was a Second World War guy. He phoned me right away, and I asked what was wrong. He told me he couldn't go, because he had kids. They didn't have any housing in the reserve, so he couldn't go. He stayed in Thunder Bay, and they refused him. That's the type of thing that was happening.

Why aren't we involved in this type of decision-making for veterans? I'm a veteran, and I don't like.... I just had a meeting here last week in town with the ombudsman. At least we have an ombudsman now to do some work for us, to speak to the DVA and to try to get our programs through— including for me; I had a hard time with the DVA. It's the system. It's changing now, but there's still a lot of work to be done so that people are treated equally.

That's not saying aboriginal veterans only. There are the other veterans also. I sit on some committees; I was president of the Korea veterans in Saskatoon and I know what's happening with some of our veterans, Second World War guys.

Anyway, they received $39 million for their veterans, just the first nations veterans. I would like to see some compensation for all aboriginal veterans. If just first nations veterans are going to receive it, that's discrimination, because we're entrenched in the Constitution. We're called aboriginal people--Métis, non-status, and Inuit. The government looks at us as aboriginal people. They gave $39 million to the first nations people. Why? Why weren't we included in that?

There's a lot more I could add, but I haven't got too much time.

Anyway, we have 20 recommendations. The Senate did a survey, right across Canada, and made some recommendations. I think there were 12 recommendations. We have 20.

You have those recommendations in your package, which was revised by us. Alastair will speak to that.

Also, the information came from the provinces. Maybe I didn't go far enough into that. We have people in every province--except one province in the Maritimes, either because the veterans don't want to join or we don't have that many aboriginal veterans there--and every territory, and they all had some input into these recommendations that Alastair is going to speak about.

That's all I have to say right now, unless you have any questions on what I've said.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

I'll just let you know, sir, about the way this will probably work. If your colleague has something to say, then we'll let him have his time. Then we'll open it up to questions. If we had questions now, that would possibly interfere with his time. I think it's easier if both of you have the chance to present before we go to questions.

[Claude Petit]

Okay. Thank you.

[Alastair MacPhee, Policy Advisor, National Aboriginal Veterans Association]

Good afternoon, Chairman Anders and committee members.

I would like to thank you for inviting NAVA to be here today. l am honoured to be here beside Claude Petit, a Métis veteran, who at 16 years of age was in combat in Korea as a member of the Princess Patricia Canadian Light Infantry. It just stuns me when I read that, because at 16 most of us were looking forward to a driver's licence, not combat.

In considering the veterans health care review and the veterans independence program, the first and central need is to develop a trusting relationship between Veterans Affairs Canada and aboriginal veterans. A legacy of poor relations and broken promises forms the backdrop to contemporary initiatives. When aboriginal veterans return to civilian life, they face racism, discrimination, and federal policies driven by the Indian Act administration.

These veterans were never effectively informed of what was available for them, and this is well described in the Senate report you all have a copy of, “Aboriginal Soldiers After the Wars”. These experiences are the backdrop you must consider when you're thinking about health programs and other initiatives that involve aboriginal veterans. On a personal basis I want to tell you that I think it's shameful that aboriginal veterans, Métis, and non-status Indians were excluded from compensation. I also think it's another shameful thing that the aboriginal veterans monument remains unfinished.

We've heard from the Royal Canadian Legion about the veterans independence program and its complex eligibility criteria. For aboriginal veterans this complexity is further compounded because aboriginal veterans face a lack of sensitivity to their culture, low literacy and numeracy skills, alienation from benefits and programs, lack of support networks, and lack of community helpers.

Back in 1996 the Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples reported that the aboriginal veterans received little or no information concerning benefits and services. In 2002 aboriginal veterans petitioned the United Nations Human Rights Committee as a consequence of the denial of available financial and statutory benefits following their military service. The supporting documents in the NAVA package describe in detail the systemic barriers that inhibited the ability of aboriginal veterans to take advantage of benefits and services. Today these remain unresolved issues for aboriginal veterans who are Métis and non-status Indians.

We would like to advise you, in your work as committee members, to give specific consideration to the needs of aboriginal veterans. I think it's important to emphasize that when you are undertaking your considerations and recommendations, you are speaking and listening to aboriginal veterans.

In 2003 the Standing Committee on National Defence and Veterans Affairs released a report entitled called “Honouring the Pledge: Ensuring Long Term Care for Veterans”. This report made no references whatsoever to aboriginal veterans.

Last year the special Senate committee released a report called “Embracing the Challenge of Aging”. This report was also weak on the needs of aboriginal veterans. The needs of aboriginal veterans have been sidestepped by many committees of the House and the Senate. The sober reality of this is that it has increased the uncertainties and anxieties in the minds of many aboriginal veterans.

We need a determined, measured, and sustained approach that's going to produce results. NAVA has provided you with 20 recommendations for your consideration. Most of them are focused on long-term care needs of aboriginal veterans, and these recommendations come from aboriginal veterans.

The call for national standards for long-term care of veterans, including care, benefits, and services, is a very important initiative. These standards can underpin the development of intelligent strategies, policies, and programs. NAVA supports the Canadian Legion in its efforts to see these standards in place. We need to underscore that an aboriginal component should be part of these national standards, as well as all the concomitant strategies, policies, and programs. Aboriginal veterans want to have the capacity to be engaged in the development and implementation of legislation, policies, and programs that have a bearing on aboriginal veterans, but without the resources and capacity, they'll just be pushed to the side.

From a practical perspective, there needs to be aboriginal representation on councils, committees, and subcommittees dealing with the health care needs of veterans.

For example, NAVA is not a member of the Gerontology Advisory Council, which was put together by Veterans Affairs. It's important that there be aboriginal representation on this council and similar bodies, because there are specific health issues and understandings that need to be present in the health promotion programs for aboriginal veterans. Any intervention model for veterans with high-care needs requires an aboriginal component to ensure that there is credibility and commitment to all aboriginal veterans.

Parallel to participation on these bodies, there needs to be long-term capacity so that NAVA can effectively participate. Currently, our capacity is almost nil. NAVA requires the dedication of volunteers such as me to keep the issues alive.

This standing committee needs to send a recommendation that NAVA requires core funding to undertake its activities. This is not a new recommendation; it's the same recommendation that was put forward to the Senate standing committee in 1996, in the document “The Aboriginal Soldier After the Wars”.

I want to draw to your attention and tell you about some interesting things. The Journal of the American Medical Association reported that one out of three senior citizens doesn't have the literacy skills to understand prescriptions, medical forms, doctors' instructions, etc. Everyone knows there's low literacy and low numeracy skills among aboriginal veterans, and they don't have health literacy skills. As a result, they're less likely to understand what programs they're entitled to receive support from. They have difficulty following instructions for filling out application forms and all the other paper work associated with this.

The subject has received little attention in Canada. In 2002, the Canadian Public Health Association reported that there was very little knowledge of the link between literacy and health. Perhaps even more worrying is the fact that the CPHA reported that practitioners still do not realize how many people are affected by low literacy skills. Even if an aboriginal veteran can read and comprehend materials from Veterans Affairs, he or she will still have difficulty comprehending the unfamiliar vocabulary and concepts. Literacy needs to be combined with problem-solving ability.

What needs to be done? There needs to be training and educational aids, and communication needs to be undertaken in a culturally sensitive manner and be seen to be part of the existing aboriginal community. Direct input and participation from NAVA will ensure that aboriginal veterans and eligible dependants and survivors are fully benefiting from the existing programs and services. Aboriginal veterans want their cultural experience and traditional roots taken into account when services are designed, communicated, and delivered. Aboriginal veterans need to be engaged in the design and delivery of program initiatives.

As aboriginal veterans age, the sensory changes that come with this stage all have their impact: visual acuity, hearing, agility, mobility, as well as the social and emotional changes. Interpersonal contact needs to take place between trusting individuals. Face-to-face meetings are the preferred source of information exchange for aboriginal veterans, because it's part of the oral tradition of aboriginal people. In many aboriginal communities, veterans will seek understanding and assistance by turning to home care workers, traditional knowledge holders, and community leaders.

To assist your work, NAVA has given you 20 recommendations for the long-term care of aboriginal veterans. In closing, I would like to thank the committee members for your interest and attention to the needs of NAVA.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Thank you very much.

Claude, I'd like to say that I tremendously respect and appreciate your participation in Korea. I have people who work in my riding association who are Korea vets, and it's commendable, sir, that you took on that task at 16. I'm very impressed.

I have questions that I want to ask, but I realize all of the other committee members have first crack at it.

We first go over to the Liberal Party of Canada, and Mr. Valley, for seven minutes.

[Roger Valley, Liberal, Kenora, ON]

Thank you very much for your presentation, and thank you for your service.

I was intrigued when you mentioned northern Ontario. I represent one of its areas, the Kenora riding.

My father landed on D-Day, and he had more than his share of troubles with Veterans Affairs when he came back, in receiving some of the benefits that he could get—I know it was a decade or more—and he faced a lot of challenges in helping a lot of the first nations people around him to access some of these services.

I've repeatedly brought up to this committee and to other witnesses the challenges we have in the remote sites, the language issues and the fact that somebody doesn't come to remote northern Ontario. They may fly in...another 500 miles north where there are no services at all, not even airports or anything at the time. All these challenges they had....

You mentioned the payments. Also, Claude, you mentioned an individual who worked and ended up staying in Thunder Bay. Do you remember the home community of that individual?

[Claude Petit]

What was the name of it? His name is Martin, anyway. You might know my uncle from Kenora, Don Petit?

[Roger Valley, Liberal, Kenora, ON]

Yes, I've met him. The reason I ask is that my dad did a lot of services for a lot of people, and the family name I thought I might recognize, because he dealt with this well into the seventies, trying to help people. They had no resources themselves, and he had some, and he tried to move their issues forward.

So this individual was from my riding, then?

[Claude Petit]

The thing is, they had no other place to go, so we tried to work with them. Also, we'd get some assistance from Cliff Chadderton. We belong to that organization also, so we're funnelling through him because he has all the resources.

[Roger Valley, Liberal, Kenora, ON]

I remember, growing up, my father at the kitchen table working with different files. He was a difficult individual to say no to. He would travel to Thunder Bay and Winnipeg, trying to deal with these other issues for the veterans.

It has to be extremely difficult. You mentioned the payments, and you mentioned the challenges. Some were recognized, and some weren't. Where does it stand today? I believe the information we have here....

Your information was a little bit different, but I'll just read you what we have: “According to the Department of Veterans Affairs, up to April 2007, 1,250 First Nations veterans or surviving spouses had received...payments out of a total of 2,743 applicants...”. That was just for first nations. Do you have any idea how many Métis outside of that have served, and what kind of numbers we're talking about? You may have mentioned, and I might have missed them.

[Claude Petit]

No Métis or non-status received that.

[Roger Valley, Liberal, Kenora, ON]

Do you know how many who served would be Métis or non-status and aren't counted in these?

[Claude Petit]

Yes, there would be about 4,000. That's a rough figure, because a lot of the veterans didn't.... Even my dad you would never think was a Métis, because he looked like a Frenchman, and he could speak good French. Because of discrimination, he went on the French side. We were discriminated against in school, as you're probably aware, and that's why they did that. That's why they couldn't track.... At least, the first nations people were tracked. They came back from the armed forces, and they had a place to go. The Métis didn't.

As far as their education went, as Alastair said.... I know my dad had grade 4. If it weren't for my mom, he wouldn't have gotten the benefits he received. She was communicating with DVA at that time. There was nobody else to support her.

[Roger Valley, Liberal, Kenora, ON]

Just as a matter of pride, I have nothing but respect for French Métis. I married one 30 years ago, and we're still together. She is very difficult to deal with, but she's usually right.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Claude Petit]

Mine didn't last that long.

[Roger Valley, Liberal, Kenora, ON]

I'm losing my time here.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[A voice]

You're wearing a bullet-proof vest.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Roger Valley, Liberal, Kenora, ON]

I'm having fun with this. Often I don't have fun with these discussions.

So these 4,000 are there. Obviously they're in the elder stage of life. If we're going to do something, we have to do something sooner than later. What stage is it at right now? Can you tell me whether we're in active negotiation or nearing the end of negotiation? Have we started since 2002?

[Claude Petit]

Well, nothing's coming back from government. We've applied. We've put it in. As I said, we tried. Through the War Amps, we put in a submission to government, and we did that through Geneva. Nothing happened. We're still waiting for an answer.

To be fair, it's to get the same compensation as the Hong Kong veterans and the merchant navy. It's a fair thing. They put us in the category of first nations, which we cover, as the Chinese and Japanese. They gave them $20,000 also. They gave the first nation veterans $20,000. That's the magic figure, I guess. But the thing is that it's pretty bad when you're willing to give up your life for that, and people are not looking at it that way.

Well, that's the way it goes, I guess.

[Roger Valley, Liberal, Kenora, ON]

As you say, they recognize certain groups, and they don't recognize one of the ones that served.

The reason for this committee's study right now is health care. I believe that quality of life is controlled by some of the resources you have in your life. Many of these people you're talking about don't have resources. This could make a big difference to their quality of life, to what they could do in the latter stages of their life. So I think it's important that we recognize this.

I'm going to switch gears slightly. I want to get back to northern Ontario. We talked about the provincial agencies and long-term care. I forget what point it is in your long-term care. Veterans Affairs working with the provincial and territorial health authorities is the challenge I have in my riding. I have people who need service, but they're not going to get it unless they move a thousand miles away. That breaks the family unit, which in aboriginal, first nations, and Métis culture, as you know, is a bond for all of them. It breaks that.

I don't know if you want to add anything to what that is, but it's like fighting up a steep slope to try to get these resources into these small communities. We can do it. In Sioux Lookout we're building a brand new provincial-federal hospital . These things aren't built every day. But we need some allocation to make sure there are a couple of long-term care beds in there. My riding is 60% first nations.

[Claude Petit]

I'd like to answer that, because we have the same problems in Saskatchewan, where I'm from. I myself pay for some of the rooms. People come down from northern Saskatchewan. Maybe their band will pay for a motel room for one night. And then they're back. If they don't make that appointment with the doctor.... So they phone me, and I pay for the room.

The problem is that they're not taking care of the veterans as they should. When I was president of the Korean veterans in Saskatoon, I had my person approach Veterans Affairs to give us the names of the veterans. They have 500 there. I said, “Give us the names. We'll phone them. We'll have somebody go into your office and phone those veterans to ask them how they're doing.” They wouldn't. They wouldn't allow that. It's their policy. We're trying to help them.

There is another thing too. My cousin was in the Second World War, the Korean War, and peacekeeping. He said, “I'm going to die before they do an assessment on me to get a wheelchair.” He waited six weeks before somebody came in to do an assessment. And then he had a problem going to the washroom. After my mother passed, I had that, so I brought it. And the Korean veteran's wife died, so we gave him a wheelchair.

You see, that's their job. That's what I'm trying to say. Why don't they phone these people? It takes six weeks before they assess and help this veteran. As you know, the Second World War veterans are 85. The Korean veterans are in their seventies. So they're pretty nearly at the end of their line. These guys are 85 and 86 years old. That's the problem. But the thing is that they need assistance.