Veterans Affairs Committee on June 17th, 2008

[Rick Barker]

The most significant thing we did in recent years was bring an unknown warrior back from the Western Front. We now have a tomb of the unknown warrior. It was something that people had raised before and discussed, but it never happened. We did it, and in doing so we made one mistake. The unknown warrior was flown into Wellington and lay in state here at the Parliament Buildings for two days. The crowds that came to see the unknown warrior's casket were such that they had to leave the building open all night. It was supposed to close at 8 o'clock at night, but the numbers came in. The numbers that turned out on the day for the casket to be carried from Parliament to the tomb of the unknown warrior were unbelievable.

The mistake we made was that we should have taken the casket to other centres throughout New Zealand so that others had the opportunity to pay their respects. The outpouring of grief and emotion was unanticipated. I think there was only one person who said we would get this reaction, but no one expected it. So that's the major event we did in recent times.

We fund the memorial day--we call it ANZAC Day and it's in April. It starts off at dawn, and we leave it to the local organizations to do that. They do a superb job.

The numbers attending ANZAC Day commemorations have grown and grown. I come from a small town of 50,000, and we expect 4,000 or 5,000 people to be there at 6 o'clock in the freezing cold, which is very impressive. The kids turn up with medals from their grandfathers and great-grandfathers.

I'm getting a bit emotional about this.

Fiona, carry on.

[Fiona Macrae]

As well as ANZAC Day and supporting that outpouring in the community, the minister also has a discretionary fund whereby he's able to assist veterans to go back to areas where they fought, so they can go back and visit the battlefields they fought in. It's kind of a closure for them to go back and see where they were, how it is changed. Last year there were about 120 who went back to Malaya, who had fought with the British forces in Malaya, and they toured around Malaya and went to all the places they had served in, saw all those things, and saw how they contributed to that community. We sent a number of Korean veterans back to Korea, and they feel good in themselves that they contributed to modern-day Korea. They can see how their service benefited another country as well as what they have done for New Zealand. So that is a very significant way in which we can acknowledge their service, provide an acknowledgement and support for them.

The minister went and joined with the guys who went to Malaya. They had a great time. They showed him where they'd been and were rewarded by the Malayan people for what they had done. That, as well as what we do in New Zealand to commemorate people, to commemorate veterans for their service, is an important step as well. Now they can go back and see what they have contributed.

[Rick Barker]

We pay the basic airfare. We pay nothing else. We just pay the basic airfare. We've sent 140 to Malaya, and it was a trip the group organized to get themselves there for Hari Merdeka, which is the day of recognition of independence. It was the 50th anniversary of Merdeka. There was a huge, long parade, and the Malays didn't realize they had quite a large group of New Zealand vets there, but when they did, they made space on the parade for them and they walked. Here were these old men with walking sticks and so on, all vets, and the crowd gave them an amazing ovation. The paper reported the loudest applause was for the vets. Everywhere they went they were well looked after. One vet told me it was so good he couldn't get his money belt around his waist any more. It took a week. He said he had to carry it over his shoulder. They sort of heaped hospitality on them. It was fantastic. They came back and told their friends what they had done.

Fiona is quite right that it is a really emotional journey for them, and it sends a powerful message out through the rest of the community.

So we give them each one return airfare if that's what they want to do. It has to be to a commemoration or a memorial trip. If we were going to Korea, there is a particular function, a particular battlefield that commemorates the start of our engagement in Korea. Nearly every year there is a group of 20 to 30 Korean vets who go back.

I think this is one of the best things we have ever done. Not many other people do it that I'm aware of, but it's really well worthwhile. I can't tell you just how much value we get out of it for the veterans, and it is very symbolic and powerful for them.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Thank you. That's a great story.

Mr. Perron, from the Bloc Québécois, you have five minutes.

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Mr. Chair, I will be brief, because we have a vote at about 5:30 p.m. and I want to give the others a chance to ask a question.

Do you have a lot of veterans' organizations, like we do in Canada? We have veterans from Korea, from the first Gulf War, from peacekeeping operations, and so on. We must have fifty or so. In my opinion, they are fragmented, whereas they should be coming together to gain strength in numbers and get all the assistance they can.

Could you tell us if you have the same situation?

[Rick Barker]

We don't have a problem as such. The Royal New Zealand Returned and Services' Association is recognized by all as the umbrella organization, the pre-eminent organization representing veterans. It is the largest by far. There are other groups, and I and the RSA president meet with the other groups such as the Malayan vets, the Korean vets, who are members of the RSA, and the Vietnam vets. They all turn up, and we have—I've forgotten what the name of the meeting is. It's the affiliates forum. We do this to make sure we keep everybody together on the one page because what we don't want is to have multiple voices speaking on behalf of veterans. We want to have a single, clear voice. I have made it clear to veterans that that is in their best interest, and they accept that. They recognize the leadership of the RSA, so by working with them collectively, we are keeping them together as a group for their best interests, for my best interests, for everybody's best interests.

I don't want to see anything done to try to make one group feel they could get a special deal over here as opposed to someone over there. If we do that, we'll stop the groups and we'll have nothing but trouble from there on.

I reinforce the message with the veterans, which they have done themselves, to speak with a single voice. It's the most powerful voice they can have.

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

When people leave the regular army and return to civilian life, does your Ministry of National Defence provide all the information on programs that veterans can receive, or do they just have to fend for themselves? That was the case here in Canada, but it seems to be getting better. There is supposed to be a kind of association, a way in which Veterans Affairs and National Defence work together. How is your system better? What in your system do you feel works well?

[Rick Barker]

It's been decided that in the decades prior to this, people weren't given the best information they could have been. The whole thrust of our reorganization is to improve the quality of information people are given and to have a seamless transition for people from being service personnel to being a veteran or going into civilian life.

Prior to the person's leaving, there are clear sessions put out where all the transitional issues are handled, and we're doing our very best to make sure we do it to the highest degree we can. Wherever we find that we have difficulties, we're overcoming them. It's a process of constant and incremental improvement. Whatever we can do better, we will do better.

I'm sorry, I'm going to have to go. I have to be interrogated by a parliamentary committee on estimates of moneys that I'm responsible for. So you know what sport is about to be afoot.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

It's not a problem. We thank you very much for your time, sir. If you were here we would invite you for a beer. You've given us some great ideas.

Thank you very much.

[Rick Barker]

I'll just say in closing that I'll have a rain check on the beer. I'll come and collect it as soon as I can.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Wonderful.

Committee members, just before we head off to the vote, there are a couple of things I want to address with you.

One is that we could go ahead and hold a meeting on Thursday; however, there is some debate and rumour about whether we'll be gone as of question period on Wednesday or whether it will be question period on Thursday, or what have you. Also, there is no other committee scheduled for Thursday afternoon. So I've told the clerk not to bother booking the French for Thursday afternoon. We'll resume that portion of the study in the fall--unless I have massive overwhelming--

[Roger Valley, Liberal, Kenora, ON]

I think we should stay for another week.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Well, there you go. Bless your heart.

I also wanted to let people know that some of us had the chance to visit the Beechwood Cemetery. I went there again today and got some things.

I thought this was interesting. If you can make this out, it is an example of an unmarked grave. There are about 60 of them in that cemetery, and there are about 33 other cemeteries across the country. This is an example of a plaque that is on the ground. A lot of these are for spouses. This one happens to be for a serving member. There was some debate when we were at the cemetery on whether we could see fit to make sure that every single one of those unmarked graves at least has one of these plaques, which we figure would be less than $1,000, maybe as little as $500. We'll see.

The other example here is one that was done through the Last Post Fund, through Veterans Affairs. As you can see, they all have the cross on them.

This other one is an example of something the families would finance themselves, above and beyond what the Last Post Fund makes available.

So I think we'll probably want to give some consideration to that idea at some point.

[Roger Valley, Liberal, Kenora, ON]

I think you need a better camera.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

I was using my phone, which I had available.

Mr. Shipley.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

Could I just follow up on that a little bit, Mr. Chairman?

Although I wasn't able to be at the tour on Thursday, I'm just wondering if it would be of interest to the committee to actually ask the ministry to help provide us with the number. We have unmarked and we have unknown. I'm wondering if they could help provide us with the number of those unknowns and the ones that are unmarked but where they know the person who is there. With the cemeteries we have for veterans, it would help to give us the details in terms of the background of the number of cemeteries, in fact, that Veterans Affairs has the number of unknown and unmarked graves and sites that there are, just to give us a bit of a handle on where that's at in total.

And then, depending on the results of that, I think maybe I would like to see the committee have some discussion about where we might go to help change that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

I just want to provide context. In this one here, I made sure the person buried there is known, but it is unmarked.

Mr. Valley.

[Roger Valley, Liberal, Kenora, ON]

I'm not sure Mr. Shipley is talking about just one set of cemeteries. We have cemeteries right across the country where we have known soldiers buried and have no marker of any kind on them at all. They're everywhere.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

I'm just talking about veterans right now, and I think it would be good to have the information. Then it might generate some discussion about where we might want to take it from there. Defence has its own issue with soldiers, but I think for veterans—

[Roger Valley, Liberal, Kenora, ON]

The issue is broader than just that cemetery.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

No, no. I meant across Canada, the number of cemeteries.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Recognize that I'm not just discussing this in terms of Beechwood. It just so happens that was where the pictures are.

[Bev Shipley, Conservative, Lambton—Kent—Middlesex, ON]

I appreciate the chair showing us that we have that documentation, but I meant across Canada, not just the one.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Mr. Sweet.