Veterans Affairs Committee on Dec. 13th, 2007

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.

First off the bat, I realize we all have a vote in the chamber coming up at one o'clock, and it's a fairly significant issue in the sense that it's a budget--our budget implementation bill--so we'll probably need to clear out of here with a few minutes to spare, if possible.

To our witness this morning, I apologize. I'm sure many of us were tuned to the testimony in another committee, so some of us may have been late getting here this morning.

Nonetheless, we have with us Mr. Ron Griffis, national president of the Canadian Association of Veterans in United Nations Peacekeeping.

Sir, as you're probably aware, we're undergoing a study of the veterans health care review and the veterans independence program.

Usually the way we work it is we open the floor to you for 10 or 20 minutes. After that we take a rotation with the various committee members from various parties. I think you've been through this drill before, sir, so the floor is yours.

[Ronald Griffis, National President, Canadian Association of Veterans in United Nations Peacekeeping]

Thank you.

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Are we going to give him a twenty-minute break or a ten-minute break, like we did for Mr. Mulroney today?

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

I wasn't familiar with the break that the former Prime Minister received, but I don't suspect we're going to keep him here for four hours. We have a vote.

[Ronald Griffis]

Good morning.

My name is Ron Griffis. I am the national president of the Canadian Association of Veterans in United Nations Peacekeeping. On behalf of our association, I thank you for inviting us here today to give a small talk.

Before I start, on November 15, 2007, I happened to be watching CPAC. At that particular time there was a debate in Parliament about the National Peacekeepers' Day Act once again, and my colleague, retired Colonel Don Ethell, had some very nice things said about him by Member of Parliament Ms. Betty Hinton. Don is not able to be with us today--he's in Calgary--and he wanted to thank her for the very kind remarks that were made on his behalf.

With respect to the veterans independence program, from my point of view, the veterans independence program is working. It's working to the extent that when Veterans Affairs finds out about a veteran's difficulty, whether it's a traditional veteran or a new veteran, Veterans Affairs reacts to that particular situation and addresses the problem as put forth by the veteran.

Most recently, a case was handed to me on December 5. Because of the sensitive nature of the case, if I had responded right away, I would have been responding from my heart, as opposed to responding from somewhere else; I contacted Veterans Affairs over the weekend, sent them an email to be addressed on Monday, and by Wednesday of this week they were on the case and interviewing the veteran who was experiencing difficulties.

It falls into the category of communication, once again. This particular veteran was 71 years of age and was unaware of the benefits available to him. He's dying from leukemia. He wanted some assistance. As I've indicated, when Veterans Affairs was notified on the Monday and first read the email, they took hold of this and were on the case by Wednesday.

Other cases are working with respect to the veterans independence program. Two of my colleagues in Greenwood, Nova Scotia, had difficulties in their homes with respect to the special equipment that assists them in living in their homes. Within five days of being notified of that difficulty, Veterans Affairs Canada had rectified it.

The new Veterans Charter advisory group, chaired by Muriel Westmorland of Hamilton, Ontario, will be addressing the veterans independence program and the health care review, and I believe there will be a report in April as a result of that particular committee.

Some of the difficulties with respect to the veterans independence program are the time limits. As I mentioned just a few minutes ago, the time limits with respect to a couple of cases were very quick and to the point. By the same token, sometimes Veterans Affairs Canada is a little slow to react, but in the last couple of years that has been addressed, and they are certainly reacting very quickly when a problem is brought to their attention.

The only complaint we have is that from time to time there is difficulty with the application system and the time limits having to with an application once it is put forth to VAC. Sometimes they're a little slow, but by the same token, things are working out quite well.

I don't have much to say with respect to the review of veterans' care needs. I am on a subcommittee chaired by Don Ethell, and the major committee, the new Veterans Charter advisory group, as I mentioned, is chaired by Muriel Westmorland. That particular subcommittee just started earlier this month, and once again we hope to have a report by April with respect to the health care review concerning the new Veterans Charter.

I have before me the note from Mr. Duffie. This is the gentleman who is passing away...or who is in serious difficulty with respect to leukemia.

As I indicated, it's a communication problem. And I think it's a communication problem with a lot of veterans.

Mr. Duffie joined the force and he said he wouldn't whine. Yet it has come to this situation where it's getting a bit beyond him with respect to the financial problems. Now that he's 71 years old and he's experiencing health difficulties, he's making an application. But by the same token, if there had been more communication earlier for Mr. Duffie, I'm quite certain this would have been addressed earlier. As it is, he's 71 years of age, and he has leukemia, which requires a great deal of medical care. It's just too bad that it wasn't addressed much earlier.

I have the note from Mr. Duffie, which I'm quite prepared to leave with you.

Other than that, as I indicated, our organization is content that the veterans independence program, generally speaking, is working very well.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

All right. That obviously leaves a lot more time for questions.

First off, we'll go to the Liberal Party of Canada, with Mr. Valley, for seven minutes.

[Roger Valley, Liberal, Kenora, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Griffis.

I'm glad you corrected yourself and said that Mr. Duffie is still alive. He could be listening. This is live on the web.

[Ronald Griffis]

I told him I would mention it to VAC.

One of the reasons Mr. Duffie wrote to me is that as a prelude to coming to Ottawa, I sent an email to our membership, generally. It reaches well over a thousand people in a matter of seconds. Thank goodness for the email system.

[Roger Valley, Liberal, Kenora, ON]

That's the challenge we face. We've brought it up many times at this committee. I serve in the Kenora riding. It's a very rural area, and it's a long way between anywhere. We don't know who has served and who our veterans are. I know our legions have a lot of support, and we work with them, but it's very difficult for us to actually communicate with them unless they come forward. There are privacy laws, and we have to deal with them.

I want to ask you where you served, sir.

[Ronald Griffis]

I served with the Canadian Army Provost Corps, which is now called the military police. I served in Manitoba, Ontario, Quebec, New Brunswick, and Cyprus.

[Roger Valley, Liberal, Kenora, ON]

Thank you for all that service in those many different locations. We're fortunate to have someone with your experience.

You referred to the Gerontological Advisory Council report. A lot of that seems to be geared toward serving people who were in the Korean War and the Second World War.

We have people, like yourself, who did not necessarily serve in the war. We want to make sure that our focus is not totally on a couple of groups when there are people who served in the Gulf War, in Cyprus, and in any number of theatres and difficult operations around the world. What would you say about how we would involve everyone to make sure it's working.

[Ronald Griffis]

I'm under the impression that this is being addressed by the various committees in Veterans Affairs Canada. The Gerontological Advisory Council has indicated that a veteran is a veteran is a veteran.

Although I appreciate the different status of veterans, whether they be World War I, World War II, Korea, and then the different United Nations veterans and other veterans who began in 1953, 1956, I'm under the impression that before long—when I say before long, I gather it's up to Parliament—there will be a relatively new system where veterans will be dealt with on a case-by-case basis.

Keeping the Promise, the gerontological report that was 10 years in the making, indicated that the veterans will be served as to what they need, as opposed to what they qualify for. For instance, if a veteran needs a long-term care bed in a facility, that veteran will get it, and if he or she needs help staying in the home, they will get that also.

[Roger Valley, Liberal, Kenora, ON]

Thank you for your comment. You'll hear from a number of people around the table that a veteran is a veteran is a veteran. We believe that. We want that to work that way.

From my own side, being from the riding of Kenora, it's very important that we have the home support services, because the bed is several hundred miles away when it comes open. We accept that because we live in small communities. We know we can't necessarily have those kinds of services there. It's important for us to continue to make sure that those home care services are provided and improved upon.

Your comment at the start, that VIP is working, is encouraging. I assume there are a lot cases where it does work very well. The problems we hear about are where it doesn't work, and you've identified the information side of it.

As a member of Parliament, can you give me any advice on a riding that is almost one-third the size of Ontario? How do I reach out when I don't have the information and I don't have the contact names?

[Ronald Griffis]

In the various committees we serve on, we have brought that to the attention of Veterans Affairs Canada. They're trying to address an operation that will advise people of what is available to them. I'm under the impression that there are still 220,000 veterans out there who may or may not require assistance. When I go around to speak at the various veterans functions, I bring it to their attention.

We have the older veterans and the new veterans. The new veterans are latching on to programs like Facebook on the Internet, although I haven't been on it, where they talk about various difficulties. It's communication, and I don't know how we're going to address it. Perhaps it's going to be a full-page ad in the The Globe and Mail and the National Post and local newspapers.

Veterans Affairs publishes Salute!, which is a newspaper that goes out to all veterans who are registered with Veterans Affairs Canada. As I've indicated, I'm under the impression that there are 220,000 veterans out there who don't know what's available to them. And for those who know what is available to them, sometimes they have difficulties with Veterans Affairs Canada, and the rumours of the past difficulties with VAC catch up with them and they don't want to bother with VAC. It takes, I gather, a person like me to present an optimistic view of what's taking place in VAC, as opposed to a pessimistic view.

A lot of the comments I hear that are negative in tone, of course, come on November 11 when there are gatherings at various veterans facilities. At the end of the day, not at the beginning of the day, after there has been a lot of camaraderie and perhaps consumption of alcoholic-type beverages, they voice their opinions. Sometimes their opinions are very good and sometimes they're not, but most recently of that nature.

[Roger Valley, Liberal, Kenora, ON]

I grew up...and there were 33 members of the Legion. It was mandatory for all of us to join the Legion. My father was a veteran, landed on D-Day. I've lived through many of those experiences of the day-long discussions. With my father, his opinion of Veterans Affairs was always on the negative side, right from the time he was...I forget the term, when they were actually released from the army, but they had a pay they were allowed to access. It took him years and years just to access that.

He had the ability. He was an educated man and had all the ability of living in a town of, at that time, 5,000 people, which wasn't bad. With many of the issues in northern Ontario, where they had no services or they were first nations, they simply didn't have the ability.

I'm getting the sign. Thank you very much for coming today.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

All right. Thank you very much, Mr. Valley.

We now go over to Monsieur Perron.

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Good morning, Mr. Griffis. Greetings, once again. We've met a number of times.

I have a message for Mr. Duffie, the former member who you have taken care of. He was lucky to find a guardian angel in blue because I'm convinced that his case would not have been settled in a few weeks, as it was thanks to you, if he had remained alone in the field like most people who find themselves in a similar situation.

I'll give you an example. A lady by the name of Jennifer came and testified with her husband, Mr. Rainville. She told us that it took nine years to settle his case.

I'd like to hear your comments.

The main problems at the department are attributable to reaction time. You said in your statement that it was a bit slow, but I find it's very slow.

You didn't talk about the complex nature of the documents that must be completed? It isn't always easy for a person to complete those documents.

I'd also like you to give me your opinion in order to expand on a point that you raised. There is a tendency—and it's no doubt a good one—to keep veterans or former members at home and to provide them with a system of home care. What do you think of that system?

[Ronald Griffis]

With respect to the slowness of Veterans Affairs Canada, some applications are extremely complex, and some applications require the resubmission of documents. The resubmission of documents takes time. Sometimes they ask for medical documents. In cases that I'm aware of, the securing of medical documents takes more time, and sometimes the person who requires attention is slow in receiving these documents. By the same token, the medical professions in our community are very busy. I appreciate the slowness and the degree of slowness that is alluded to, but by the same token, if we had more persons with the Royal Canadian Legion--a very good organization--and with our organization, who volunteered to assist these veterans, and if the veterans had confidence in these persons, it would be addressed with respect to the slowness.

Once the documents are sent or given to Veterans Affairs Canada, that's a different story. We have no control over that, only to indicate that recently, as I've indicated, between last week and this week, they addressed the case that was brought to their attention.

I appreciate the complexity of the documents. For instance, I'm aware of a colleague who has applied for hearing assistance. He required the report of an audiologist. Just to get an appointment with that particular specialist took some time. After six months had elapsed, Veterans Affairs Canada sent him a reminder, and he still experienced difficulty in getting a comprehensive report from an audiologist. Once again, that has now been addressed. By the same token, that was very timely.

With respect to the trend of keeping veterans in their homes, I'm under the impression that once that particular decision is made...I feel it is less expensive, bearing in mind that a lot of times the dollar is the bottom line. To keep a veteran at home, with respect to the various services, such as home care, Meals on Wheels, and assistance in getting to appointments, is much cheaper and much better for the veteran, as opposed to putting that veteran in a long-term bed, which I understand costs a tremendous amount of money.

Once again, the veteran's mental health at that particular time will be addressed in that he will be in familiar surroundings in a familiar community. Once he establishes a rapport with the persons who are providing service, I think the veteran will be much happier and much more comfortable in his home. Our association agrees with the home care situation, and we hope there is more of it.

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

I only need a minute. This is a very brief question.

My concern is home care. I'm not talking about my riding, because it's a semi-rural, semi-urban riding very close to Montreal. I'm thinking here of my friend Roger Valley.

How can anyone go and provide care twice a week, or every day, to a veteran who is at home a number of kilometers from the city, where the roads are often not very passable? Some will need care every day.

Does the medical transportation system for veterans have the capability and the know-how to make this task acceptable in all provinces?

[Ronald Griffis]

Yes.

As part of the veterans independence program.... There's a paragraph in the booklet that is handed out by VAC that says, “transportation costs to foster independence, for activities such as shopping, banking, and visiting friends when transportation is not otherwise available”.

I appreciate that this directs its attention to transportation, but it also pertains to other items. The veteran can be visited and things of that nature so they can be addressed.

I'm under the impression that if a problem of that nature arose, there would be flexibility with respect to Veterans Affairs Canada and they would address it, and they would address it to the benefit of the veteran.

[Gilles-A. Perron, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

That's my wish as well.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

[Le président, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Thank you very much, Mr. Perron.

We will now move on to Mr. Stoffer, with the NDP.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

I will just give you a chance, Mr. Chairman, to welcome the group behind us, if you wish.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Anders]

Yes. From what I understand, they're visitors in from the riding of Richard Nadeau of the Bloc. We welcome you. Hopefully you'll get a sense of what our parliamentary committees are like.

We have a witness before us today, so we get to ask him all sorts of questions about veterans programs and get his feedback.

Thank you very much for visiting.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Thank you, and have a cookie before you go.

First of all, Mr. Griffis, thank you very much for coming. I had the privilege of speaking to one of your organizations in Greenwood a few weeks ago.

Sir, you had indicated how the VIP is working, and you're absolutely correct; it works for those who receive it. But for those who have been denied it because of the principles and policies that are in place, it can be a very frustrating experience, as I'm sure you're aware.

I'll give you the example of Chris Beattie. She is a woman whose husband was exposed to Chalk River. He was very ill. DVA came to his home and said, “Sir, you are entitled to VIP. We are going to give it to you.” He died before he actually received it. Because he died before he actually received it, she is not entitled to VIP services.

As you know, sir, by the time we go to bed tonight, we will lose another 120 veterans and/or their spouses due to old age and sickness. And we're losing an awful lot of them very, very quickly.

We had a previous assurance by a former opposition leader, and now Prime Minister, that VIP would be extended immediately, and it hasn't happened yet. I understand there is a health care review, which is very important, not just for VIP but for other aspects of it.

Do you not believe, sir, that something like VIP, which does save the taxpayers money, should be extended immediately to people who call in? I have a very straightforward view. As you know, many of the older veterans find it very difficult to fill out forms. If they didn't get a hearing test during the war, they may be denied hearing aids or pensions for that, because there is no so-called medical evidence that they can link their need to their service.

We had a gentleman in Windsor, Nova Scotia, the other day who was denied by VRAB. He was a firefighter with DND for many years and was denied compensation or a pension benefit because they couldn't prove that his cancer and his heart problems were caused by smoke inhalation, because he didn't have all the medical evidence behind him.

The government, and other people, have said, sir, that the benefit of the doubt should always fall upon the veterans. If an 84-year-old veteran calls up looking for help, shouldn't the answer be, “we'll be there to help you, and what do you need?” instead of “well, you didn't have this particular medical form”, or “you may be making too much money, we're not able to help you”, or “you don't qualify for this particular benefit”?

We hear the good stories, but we hear an awful lot of the most unfortunate ones of people who have been denied.

What advice could you give us?