Veterans Affairs Committee on March 30th, 2009

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you very much.

Mr. André, for nine minutes.

[Guy André, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Good day, gentlemen. Thank you for joining us. You do a fine job helping young students become more knowledgeable about their country.

How many permanent employees does your organization have? How many volunteers do you have working in each province? How do you go about ensuring that these volunteers are conveying a uniform message? You can appreciate the values embraced by organizations such as yours. How do you train these volunteers?

[Marc Chalifoux]

To answer your first question, our organization has five full-time employees. Occasionally, we hire people on contract to work on a temporary basis.

During the school year, especially with the Memory Project, between 75% and 80% of our visits take place in the six to eight weeks leading up to Remembrance Day or week. The ranks of our organization swell a little during this period because of the demand that must be met. Since the Institute has remained relatively small, we are easily able to adapt to this situation.

As for the number of volunteers working for the Institute, close to 1,500 veterans are devoting or have devoted time to the Memory Project. Some have become more involved over time, while in the case of others, their involvement has decreased. It's a matter of supply and demand. When a teacher requests a visit, we try and contact a veteran in the area to arrange a visit.

Veterans involved in the Memory Project live in all regions and in all provinces of Canada. We try to adopt a uniform approach. Once a season is over, we review cases where we were unable to fulfill a request. We then try to recruit volunteers in regions where the demand for the program is high.

As for ensuring the uniformity of the message, as Jeremy mentioned earlier, recruitment and orientation activities and sessions have been organized. Committee members attended our breakfast on February 26. This was an opportunity to convey our appreciation and thanks to all of our volunteers. The breakfast was immediately followed by a training and orientation session to explain to veterans, some of whom may be new to the project, how they can share their stories with young people.

If we can't arrange an orientation session, we always find someone from the Institute to speak directly to the veteran prior to a visit. As Mr. MacDonell mentioned, we make every effort to put the teacher in touch with the veteran so that the latter's presentation reflects the classroom curriculum.

A wide range of tools has been developed for educators, such as the D-Day outline that has been distributed to members along with the other material. It helps teachers not only to prepare for the veteran's visit, but also to do a follow up. Therefore, it's not just a matter of the veteran making a 60- or 70-minute presentation. The visit becomes part of the existing classroom curriculum on World War II or some other event. The Memory Project is a tool that goes beyond ordinary textbooks. Too often, history is taught through textbooks. The Memory Project provides first-person historical accounts of events that occurred. In other words, the veterans who are invited to speak can answer questions as well.

Veterans who volunteer to share their stories are considered to be an extremely valuable resource.

[Guy André, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

You explain from a historical perspective the First and Second World Wars, and even the Korean War and other conflicts. However, do you also delve into the different causes of such conflicts?

The Second World War and the current conflicts in Afghanistan and Iraq are not comparable. They are very different types of conflicts and our reasons for being involved are different as well. Do you also take the time to explain this to people?

My question may be similar to the one asked by Ms. Sgro earlier. When you do a presentation, do you explain the causes of war and how war can be avoided? Perhaps these are topics that you should be broaching. School violence is on the rise. Taxing is a major problem in schools. I know that when conflicts arise, parties often turn to mediation. A number of conflict-avoidance techniques can be employed, such as intervention and peer support. Much work is being done in this area. Do you address t any of these issues?

I'm curious, because I know that there have been many tribal wars in African and that mediation was used for conflict resolution purposes. I was wondering if you advocate this technique at all?

[Marc Chalifoux]

In terms of explaining the causes of a conflict, you will note that in the educational tool prepared on D-Day, we focus on a number of areas. However, the Memory Project is an additional resource that allows teachers to go even further. It provides students with access to a first-person historical account, similar to documentary research.

We are not trying to give them the whole story, but rather to explore events in greater detail. Mr. MacDonell could tell you more, because I'm not the one who gives the presentations. There are as many different stories as there are veterans who visit the schools. The presentations are all similar, but not identical.

As far as mediation is concerned, we use the story telling technique. We practice an indirect form of mediation. You mentioned the causes of war and the different types of conflicts. Listening to a veteran talk about the Second World War furthers our understanding of a conflict like the one in Afghanistan and puts it into perspective, historically speaking. Learning about Canada's role on the world stage helps us to move forward. Without this historical perspective, it would be hard for us to move forward.

To understand the human dimension of war, there is probably no better spokesperson than someone who experienced it firsthand. To hear about the human dimension of war from a veteran like Mr. MacDonell is a truly personal and moving experience, one not soon forgotten by a young student. It's quite different from reading a dry account of war in a textbook.

Perhaps Mr. MacDonell would like to add to that.

[George MacDonell]

Well, that's a very good question.

Earlier, someone asked what some of the important questions are. One of the questions students are interested in, and we make very clear, is that war is a terrible thing. And as a veteran, I want to have them understand that we are not a military nation; we have no interest in military activity to subjugate other people and so on. We only became involved in World War II when it was a matter of whether we were facing the question of either slavery or maintaining our way of life. And after the whole nation was convinced we must draw a line here against the Nazi conquest of Europe, we explain, then it was only as the last resort that we became involved. And one of the problems with that, of course, was that we were not prepared for it and it was a great struggle and strain for us.

For, let's say, the Japanese children who are in the class, I always point out that the Japanese people were just as much the victims of their military dictatorship as the allied forces were, and that they too were victims of a bad political system, and that 2.9 million Japanese died in that terrible war. Far more died in the fire-bombing of Japan than were killed by the atomic bombs.

So we try to point out that the matter of politics is very important in avoiding the terrible conflict we've just been through. But I've never really heard any question as sophisticated as that, about how we do something even more significant. We just try to explain our history, how terrible it was, and we say in effect, I'm afraid.... One of the attitudes is that it was a terrible thing but the good news is that we retained our freedom. We pretty well stop there.

But we are very sensitive to the children who come from other cultures, because they have different ideas about what the war was about and we want them to hear our side of it.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Merci beaucoup, monsieur André.

Now we're going to move to the Conservatives, with Ms. O'Neill-Gordon, for seven minutes.

[Tilly O'Neill-Gordon, Conservative, Miramichi, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First I want to thank all of you for being here this afternoon. Being a teacher right fresh out of the classroom, I certainly realize the importance of the Dominion Institute.

I find, when I take the opportunity to check the website, that there's very little representation of Atlantic Canada. In fact, there is no one from the province of Newfoundland. Is there a reason for this? I know that in years gone by teachers did obtain a lot of information from the Dominion Institute. The one teacher we have at our school is a pro with it now, so he doesn't go back to it as much as he used to.

I'm just wondering if there is still information there for the teachers of Atlantic Canada, as much as there used to be.

[Jeremy Diamond]

There definitely is. As I was saying earlier, some areas are just tougher than others. I've been out to every province in Canada as sort of a representative and ambassador, so to speak, of the Memory Project, talking to teachers and Legion representatives and veterans themselves. And what we're finding in some areas of Atlantic Canada is that the Legions are taking the lead on organizing school visits. Some may see it as a duplication of sorts. We're trying to complement them by providing some additional education materials and resources to schools or to them directly to give to schools.

Newfoundland has been a tough one. I've been out there a few times and we plan to go out there again late this summer or early fall, hopefully. We know there are veterans out there; I speak to them. I got a call from a veteran last week who asked me the same question you did: why aren't there more of us out here who are involved in the Memory Project? We're out here.

So again, back to the answer before, we're trying to identify some areas where we really need to do a bigger push--places like Victoria, Winnipeg, Toronto, Ottawa, and Montreal. Those areas are where we can hit the ground running if we go back to them. But as for the others, I wouldn't say they were under-serviced, but I think at least extra effort needs to be made to get to them again.

[Tilly O'Neill-Gordon, Conservative, Miramichi, NB]

The teacher who is at the school where I came from, I think, got off and running from you guys many years ago. He just has a passion for it. I don't know if he uses it anymore, but he has all the material. As a matter of fact, he now is a speaker and goes to different schools and organizes it.

I attended the Remembrance Day ceremony at that school. As usual, I must congratulate Mr. MacDonell. Not only have you provided a great service in years gone by, but you're continuing to provide a great service, because teachers and students certainly benefit a lot by having a veteran in there and speaking with the children. I know that at the school where I was, they usually chose a grandfather or a great-grandfather to bring in, and they honour that veteran. They would always make thank-you cards, and that's what the aim of the teacher was, to thank the veteran. And he also spoke.

My experience was with the younger kids, so you kept it to a minimum so they didn't get the real sad story. But we always had lots of funny questions from them. I'm telling you it's a day like you say. It's very quiet, and they're really paying attention.

It's a great service and I certainly want to thank you for all of it. It's something we can certainly grow on and improve on.

[Marc Chalifoux]

To your point about younger children, our typical and primary audience for the Memory Project would be high school and middle school students, particularly within Canadian history courses. But we do receive a large number of requests from elementary schools. We organize visits in elementary schools. You're right that the focus is just slightly different. It talks about things like the poppy, the meaning of the poppy, and the meaning of remembrance, as opposed to different topics that would be more appropriate to older children.

[Tilly O'Neill-Gordon, Conservative, Miramichi, NB]

It's important to get them at that early age to start to realize and appreciate what the veterans have done in the war and how lucky we are to have the freedom we have. So I certainly congratulate you, Mr. MacDonell, for all the work you've been doing.

[George MacDonell]

Thank you.

[Tilly O'Neill-Gordon, Conservative, Miramichi, NB]

We're always glad to have the veterans come to the schools.

[Marc Chalifoux]

We've also developed very valuable partnerships with organizations like Scouts Canada, the Girl Guides, and the cadets. Mr. MacDonell was talking earlier about churches. We'll organize Memory Project visits even in old age homes. We believe that with the message of remembrance and passing the torch of remembrance, our first market, if I may say—audience would probably be the better word—is schools and teachers. But we work with all sorts of partners, and our veteran volunteers will visit many different audiences and reach many Canadians in as many settings as possible.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

There is a minute and a half left if somebody has any more questions.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

I just want to pick up on something Tilly said.

And I want to thank you as well. Because I only have a minute and a half, I'll leave those until later.

My riding has the largest aboriginal community in Canada, at Six Nations. There are quite a number of veterans in that community and they have their individual Remembrance Day services. I'm just curious as to whether you have any of those individuals involved in the Memory Project.

[Jeremy Diamond]

We do, and it's a group of veterans. We've really tried to make a concerted effort to tell their story. We always say that every veteran's story is unique in its own way, but if you can be even more unique, if that's possible, I think the aboriginal veteran experience is even more unique.

I was in Winnipeg last week and we had several aboriginal veterans and representatives from veteran associations and communities come out and share with us their artifacts and their memorabilia and their stories there.

I would say we have maybe a dozen aboriginal veterans who are part of our group. We have close relationships with the Métis veterans associations across Canada. In 2006, a few years ago, with the help of the Department of Canadian Heritage, we were able to digitize and scan and create profiles of a few dozen aboriginal veterans in an opportunity for us to talk about their story a bit. We know from the First World War that they were the largest percentage of any Canadian people who volunteered for the war. It was something like 10% of the aboriginal community who volunteered for the First World War. As with many First World War stories, those stories are obviously gone and weren't recorded and captured the same way as we need to do with our Second World War.

So yes, the effort is being made. We know there are a lot of stories out there and we'd love to be able to be in a position, hopefully in the next six to twelve months, to go to these aboriginal veteran associations and do special presentations to their network, to their membership. In addition to inviting them to come out to different events in different areas, we would go to that and make it easy for veterans.

We're finding we have to make it easier and easier for veterans to hear our message, to get involved with the program, so oftentimes it's our going to them. An association or a society is easier for us to do, and we're definitely looking at doing that.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you, Mr. Diamond.

Now I'll go back to the Liberal Party, with Madam Foote.

[Judy Foote, Liberal, Random—Burin—St. George's, NL]

Thank you, Mr. MacDonell, and Marc and Jeremy, for being here today. It's a pleasure to have you.

I really enjoyed the breakfast we had at the Crowne Plaza Hotel. That was quite an experience, and I had the pleasure of sitting, actually, with about eight veterans that day, only to find that all of them had actually been, at one time or another, in my home province of Newfoundland and Labrador.

[George MacDonell]

That includes me. I served nearly a year at Gander and at Botwood.

[Judy Foote, Liberal, Random—Burin—St. George's, NL]

Did you? Well, thank you.

It's interesting, because Newfoundland is my home province and to hear you say you're having difficulty getting in there.... I wish you had approached me when I was the minister of education. We might have had more luck...well, we would have had more luck.

One of the things I am doing is this. MPs always put out these householders, or 10-percenters, where they get a chance to promote. In my householder that's coming out in April I have in fact a photo that you so kindly sent to me that was taken that morning. I'm identifying the veterans in that, but I'm also talking about the Memory Project. So there is an opportunity there, if you'd like, for me to ask any veteran who'd like to be a part of or take part in that to call either my 1-800 number or yours, and we can take it from there to see if we can make some inroads.

[Marc Chalifoux]

That would be greatly appreciated. The Memory Project has grown to 1,500 veteran volunteers because of word of mouth, because people have heard or seen or experienced...or know a veteran and have recommended us. So yes, we need to get more of our foot in the door in Newfoundland--

[Judy Foote, Liberal, Random—Burin—St. George's, NL]

No pun intended, right?