Veterans Affairs Committee on May 27th, 2009

[Col Pat Stogran]

Mr. Chair, I can't comment on what I have seen. I've visited homeless shelters and spoken with homeless veterans. Until I actually assign investigators to a project to get the evidence, I'm sorry, I cannot comment.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Okay.

Just further on the homelessness problem, we know that 60% of the people who are homeless in Canada have mental illness and addiction issues. We also know, through the CSC, that 70% of our people incarcerated at the federal level have mental illness and addiction issues.

I just wonder if you can provide the committee with a comment or observations on the strategy that Veterans Affairs has embarked on for mental health amongst our veterans.

[Col Pat Stogran]

I'm sorry, Mr. Chair. That's a very broad question.

I don't know if it's as it pertains to addiction, homelessness, or incarcerated veterans. I have said that the OSISS program is revolutionary in the western world in dealing with our people who are so afflicted.

If you could narrow the discussion down—

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

I think you are definitely on the right track with your observation about the OSISS clinics.

I guess the place I was coming from was that Veterans Affairs takes proactive measures on mental health and treatment, particularly for post-traumatic stress disorders, and in actually dealing with our veterans before they end up in situations such as homelessness.

Do you have any thoughts on our treatment of mental health, on peer-to-peer groups, our treatment of addictions, the support we provide through the VIP program, and financial counselling, all of which are components that the World Health Organization fully endorses? The mental health program I witnessed in Charlottetown on Monday was world class. I'm not sure if any other veterans affairs department on the continent or around the globe would have a similar program. Do you have any thoughts on that?

[Col Pat Stogran]

Mr. Chair, that's way outside my marching orders.

I'm here to troubleshoot the problems. I am a veteran, and I acknowledge the work and the importance of the department, but I really focus on where the gaps are and where our veterans are being let down. My clientele are the veterans who are not being well served by the program, so I would have to defer the question to another study.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Do I have more time, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

I will give you time for one brief question because of the need to confirm the last....

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Thank you for your honest opinions.

I guess the point I'm trying to make, or would like to make, is that it's quite likely that the reason we've been able to keep our veterans off the streets and out of homeless shelters is the superior program that Veterans Affairs provides to our veterans. It is world-class and is endorsed by the WHO.

I think I'll probably just leave it at that for now.

[Col Pat Stogran]

Mr. Chair, I certainly acknowledge the excellent efforts the department makes towards our veterans.

Once again, my concern, for example, is the young trooper who served in Bosnia in 1994, who came back home and became a Calgary City police officer, but was troubled. His wife couldn't understand why he was troubled or what his problems were. He ended up taking his service revolver out to the back forty and blowing his brains out. She's suffering through that. Those are the people who consume my every day—weekends included.

So I don't want to detract from the good work the department is doing.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you, Mr. Stogran.

Mr. Carrier, five minutes.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Good afternoon, Mr. Stogran.

I am not a regular member of the committee. I come here occasionally. I am, however, pleased to meet you, because we are dealing with an important issue. It is important that this segment of our population, these people who have fought and whom we need to look after, have an ombudsman.

I am especially surprised by one rather unfortunate aspect of the report you submitted to us. You received 8,000 requests but have opened only 2,000 files, and this concerns me. That means that 6,000 requests have not even been dealt with, and that half of the 2,000 requests require follow-up. This leads me to ask many questions.

You said that we are finally able to assign resources to the investigations. Could you tell me whether or not you now have all of the resources to enable you to operate normally? And when do you think you will at least be able to open files for all of the 8,000 requests?

We can draw a parallel between this situation and the number of requests sent to our constituency offices in our respective ridings. We all receive these requests. And for each of them, we have to open a file to note the individual's request and to ensure that there is some follow-up done. You do more or less the same work, but for veterans.

When do you think you will be able to open all of the files and provide adequate follow-up?

[Col Pat Stogran]

Mr. Chair, to clarify the situation with those 6,000, many of the people who come to our office are simply seeking information or referrals and are not coming to us with issues that need our immediate attention. The number of 6,000, I dare say, were satisfied customers and there is not investigative work pending on those.

We have accumulated a considerable backlog as a result of the length of time it takes to staff some of the problems, even the more minor ones. But now with our full complement...I'm very much encouraged by the work that's going on in Charlottetown right now to reduce that backlog. Suffice it to say, though, that the troops on the front lines within our organization do have a very high-intensity job dealing with the veterans on the phone as well as trying to resolve these issues, and I am very conscious of the resource constraints that we have there.

I would not be comfortable at this point in time forecasting the size of staff we would need because we're not at the point where we have established our steady state working procedures yet. We won't be until we really train the staff that we have on side now. We still have three investigators to come onto the team. It's going to be even a little more complicated because I want to make sure that our procedures are harmonious with the department's, so there will be some feedback going back and forth across the line.

What I will say is that when the government apportioned resources to the function of the Veterans Ombudsman, there were 10 full-time equivalent positions that were assigned to the department that are really misemployed right now. In terms of the balance sheet and the money that was assigned to the function of a veterans ombudsman, those positions would be hugely beneficial right now to us coming to terms with the task at hand. But I don't think the situation is as grave as those 6,000 might convey, and we are moving ahead.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you for the clarification regarding the 6,000 other requests. This may be inaccurate in the current report.

Earlier, we spoke about the report that you had already prepared on March 31, 2009. I thought I understood that you would be tabling this report with the committee. Is that correct?

[Col Pat Stogran]

Yes. Mr. Chair, the office is in the throes now of consolidating our report to the minister that is sort of a snapshot in time as of the 31st of March. Once we present it to the minister, he will present it to Parliament at his convenience. There is no timeline or anything in the order in council that would enable me to sort of forecast when that particular report would be tabled.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you, Mr. Stogran.

Thank you, Mr. Carrier.

Now, we'll move to Mr. Kerr for five minutes.

[Greg Kerr, Conservative, West Nova, NS]

Thank you Colonel Stogran. We appreciate you being here.

We're probably going to agree to disagree on a couple of things here, so I don't want you to take that out of context. I think it's terrific to have an ombudsman. I expect some friction with an ombudsman. I think that's the nature of the beast. In fact, the job, as you rightly pointed out, is to go out and find things and get things done. However, a couple of things you've said—and I've tried to understand this today, based on what you said earlier—I put down as a bit more unnecessarily combative than perhaps cooperative. You used the word “harmonious” just about a minute ago. When you talk about respect, and you want respect, I think that has to be a two-way street.

As an example, with regard to the report, I'm watching your comments carefully because I know the minister wants to get that report tabled. You have to finish the report before the minister can table it, so that's the first part of the sequence. And then the minister gets it and tables it. That's one point.

There is a second matter that does concern me. We've talked about the homeless a fair amount. I expect that it's natural that there will be conversations and friction within the department. That goes without saying; otherwise, why would you need an ombudsman? You have to keep things pushing along. I think we admire that, but I have a little problem, and I want you to help me clarify, if you will. When you suggest that the staff--although they are great staff, and I couldn't agree more that they're terrific people and do a great job—don't understand the homeless and are not out there working with the homeless, that's not the impression we get from staff. We're going to hear more about that next week, I think. You say it's the system that's really holding the staff back. My understanding is that many of the staff do, in fact, confer with the homeless shelters and people who work in that circumstance and do try to find these people, but often are perhaps restricted--and I think you pointed that out--when these people don't want to be put in a situation where they have to tell the world what's going on or admit their problem or come forward for help. So part of the difficulty seems to be how you actually contact and follow through.

But I do want to be clear—and I'm hoping that's your feeling as well, although I didn't quite get that clearly when you said the staff don't understand the homeless--that I disagree with that very strongly, and it's not my understanding of what they are trying to do.

So perhaps you could answer that for us.

[Col Pat Stogran]

I'm sorry, Mr. Chair, I'm at a loss as to what the question is.

I'll comment on the report. The report that was written a year after my appointment, on November 11, was, as I said, presented to the minister, and it was agreed that we would synchronize our annual reports with March 31. That was a little over a month ago, so that is taking its natural course. I don't know where.... If I showed any disrespect to the minister on that one, I apologize. I'm certainly not....

In terms of the homeless issue—

[Greg Kerr, Conservative, West Nova, NS]

Let me clarify, just in case you misunderstood. I took your words here as meaning that there is either some kind of disconnect or it's not in the system that staff can in fact deal with the homeless. Yet I know a lot of staff do deal with the homeless and deal with the homeless shelters.

I'm trying to understand what your sense is of where it breaks down and what you would recommend be done to strengthen it. You said that systematically there's a problem there. I assume you're not suggesting that staff don't follow through with the homeless.

[Col Pat Stogran]

I'll just clarify.

There's no doubt in my mind that there are local initiatives. I have met with staff across this country. There was a gentleman in Veterans Affairs, in Moncton, I believe, who brought 100 Harley-Davidson motorcycles over to show to the vets on his own initiative, on his own time, because he's a motorcycle enthusiast. That's the nature of the people I meet in these district offices. I also meet people in the district offices at all ranks who say they can't. When I visit the districts, and I visit the shelters in the districts, Mr. Chair, I see that Veterans Affairs does not have a presence. I speak to people on the shop floors as well as to directors who say they know nothing about Veterans Affairs, and they would be only too eager to effect liaison to learn more about it.

There's no doubt in my mind that there couldn't be this public controversy right now without the department somewhere doing things. What is really missing right now is a Canadian study into homeless veterans that would sort of parallel what I see in the United Kingdom and in the United States and in Australia.

I don't know if that answers the question, but I'm not exactly sure....

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

There's no need to answer it, Mr. Stogran.

That's the end of your time, Mr. Kerr. I'm sorry. We have another Conservative slot, though, Mr. Kerr, and if you'd like to ask your colleague if you could take some of that time, Mr. McColeman has five minutes.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Again, I'll just echo and underscore our appreciation for you being here, sir. It's always great to meet a veteran who has such an esteemed career as you have had.

I'm going to reflect on your written presentation, if I might. There is one sentence in the second-to-last paragraph that says, “The Department all but ignored my advice that they are not doing enough to address the needs of homeless Veterans.”

Can you expand on that in terms of what your advice might have been?

[Col Pat Stogran]

Mr. Chair, it goes back to the days of the notes that were being prepared for submission to the minister regarding all of the things that the department is doing for the homeless. Included on that list are such things as the in-home care for the veterans independence program. My advice was that this was truly an embellishment of what is happening on the ground, and on September 20, 2008, I met with one of the regional directors and I suggested at that time that what is needed is education and information sessions between the department and the various homeless shelters, and posters and pamphlets to the individuals. That was the advice.

As I tour across the country, I see that these things have not manifested themselves. Their presence has not manifested itself. Right here in Ottawa, within walking distance of this very building, there are six homeless shelters, and about a month ago they had still not heard from Veterans Affairs. There was no presence, and if there had been some contact made--that may be the case--it was ineffective in that the staff did not know of the initiative to engage with the homeless community.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

My understanding is that Veterans Affairs was drafting a homeless strategy. Is that correct, to your knowledge? They have drafted a homeless strategy.

[Col Pat Stogran]

Mr. Chair, yes, that was the document that was classified “secret” and was withheld until we specifically asked for it and asked why it was classified secret and being withheld from us.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

So you have read it, sir?