Veterans Affairs Committee on Feb. 11th, 2009

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Deputy Minister and Keith, thanks for coming here today with your officials. I have a few questions for you. If you don't have the statistics here and could send them to us at your convenience, that would be really kind.

In your pamphlet you say that 79% of people are satisfied with the services. Well, if I were a veteran or a family member and I had received a service, I'd be satisfied, too, but do you take statistics of those who are turned down? I'd sure like to know those statistics and what they think of DVA when they're turned down.

On the charter, the minister received a letter from the Royal Canadian Legion, which we've all received as well, asking that a discussion of the charter be looked at, that it be reopened. As you know, the lump sum payment for veterans who are disabled is causing a lot of grief for individuals. This is a living document that all parties signed on to and that all the major veterans groups supported on the premise that if there were problems or anomalies the charter could be looked at and reopened.

Have there been discussions within the department about looking at that and giving the option to veterans of either a lump sum payment and/or a lifelong pension? You may know that in Britain, just prior to Christmas, they announced a new benefits package. In the event of the unlimited liability, the ultimate sacrifice, the estate receives up to $1 million Canadian. In the case of severe injuries, they can receive a lump sum payment and a lifelong pension. This kind of blows our compensation package out of the water in that particular regard, so I'm just wondering if discussions of that nature have taken place.

Of DND personnel who are currently working, I've heard that at last count there were over 900 within DND receiving a VAC pension. I'm just wondering if you can give us an up-to-date figure on that.

Also, on Agent Orange and the probability for the acceptance for Agent Orange, all the papers have to be in by the end of April, I believe. Can you tell us how many have received the $20,000 to date and how many the department anticipated prior to when the program was put in?

Last but not least, on the Veterans Review and Appeal Board, how many men and women of the Veterans Review and Appeal Board have military and medical backgrounds?

Here's the very last one for you. Maybe it's just the way I read this. On page 4 of your pamphlet you say that the “Ombudsman reports to the Minister”, but on page 21 you say that he reports annually to Parliament. Does that go to the minister first and then to Parliament or...?

That's the last question. I have many more, but I'm sure the chairperson would cut me off.

Thank you.

[Suzanne Tining]

I'll start with these seven. We'll go through all of them and you'll stop me when you have enough?

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

When it's reasonable, yes.

I should note as well, just so I can serve the committee properly--and I'll pause the time for a second--that I detected that there was an undertaking with Mr. André, and you were going to get him some numbers as well, as far as the expenditure on management is concerned. Is that what I heard in the last exchange, that you were going to provide some...? I just wanted to make sure that the undertakings were done here in terms of the two requests.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

And, sir, before I let her answer, I have one last question. This one may receive a written reply later.

When the Prime Minister in September of last year made a commitment to the allied and Commonwealth veterans regarding the war allowance, I'm sure the minister must have known how many allied or Commonwealth veterans we have in the country over the ten-year period and what that would cost. I'm wondering if you have that information, or if not, if we could have it later.

What was the government's anticipation for that promise?

[Suzanne Tining]

We will look for the numbers, but I'll start answering your question.

On the first part of the question, which was on the letter from the Royal Canadian Legion about the requirement to reopen the new Veterans Charter, you may have heard over the last two years the minister and departmental officials talking about a living charter. It is my understanding that when the new Veterans Charter was announced, the government committed that this new Veterans Charter was going to be a living charter and that we would modify the charter according to the needs as the needs became more visible and understood by us.

I've referred to the new Veterans Charter advisory committee, and of course one of their big pieces of work is to help us identify what works well with the new Veterans Charter programs, what doesn't work well, and what's missing. Later in the spring they will present their first report. I know for a fact that one of the areas that was identified early on is earnings loss. For example, when a veteran is undergoing rehabilitation, he is entitled to 75% of earnings loss compensation while he is getting himself ready to go back to work. The way the charter has been created, it's 75% of your pre-release military pay, and for some of the lower-ranking military men and women, that's not very much. So that's one area we need to look into to see if there are some changes needed.

That was your first question.

On your reference to the United Kingdom and the changes they've made recently to their allowances in the case of disability or death, I would be pleased to provide to the committee the analysis that we've done comparing the United Kingdom's recent announcement to the new Veterans Charter. I know you can't compare just the amount of the disability award, because the new Veterans Charter is an all-encompassing series of programs. The minister has asked for and we have done the comparison, and I'd be happy to provide that to the members of the committee to show that in most cases our Canadian veterans are better served by the new Veterans Charter than under that big number of $1 million, for example, coming out of the United Kingdom.

That's your second question.

I can't read my writing for the third question. I'll go to Agent Orange. We've had, if my numbers are right, for 2009...cheques issued, approved payments, up to--

[Keith Hillier]

February 2.

[Suzanne Tining]

And that's just over $1.1 million...no, it's $20,000 by the number of veterans.

The creation of the ombudsman is through an order in council. He is a special advisor to the minister, so he reports to the minister. But he has to report to Parliament once a year, and the minister will be presenting his report in Parliament. So through the minister he will report to Parliament.

Can you refresh my memory on the next one?

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Yes. How many men and women on the Veterans Review and Appeal Board have medical or military backgrounds?

[Suzanne Tining]

I will have to get back to you on that. I don't think we have the information here.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

That's a sizeable amount of time on Mr. Stoffer's questions.

The clerk says we'll check the blues, and wherever you've said you'll provide information, I'll put it in a letter to remind you, to make sure that everything's clear on what you need to provide.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

Will you ensure that whatever information comes in is given to all members of the committee?

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Absolutely.

Now we go to the Conservatives.

Mr. Kerr, for seven minutes.

[Greg Kerr, Conservative, West Nova, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I think it's been an extremely helpful presentation today. Even though I've already been briefed a few times, I keep learning. I think it's just amazing what does go on.

She mentioned that we were at a very special event at Perley Rideau yesterday, and I will recommend that we go there as a committee to visit at some point. We gave out valentines that were made by young students from across the country, and it was quite amazing to see the reception and the reaction of the vets. It also reminded us that these young people are both aware and very, very appreciative of what the veterans have done. So a lot of progress has been made on that front compared to several years ago.

Also, there are some great gifts and mementos for sale there that are created by the vets, and they're quite unique and quite special. If the committee does go, we want to take our wallets with us. We didn't get out of there yesterday without making a few purchases along the way.

I know there's a lot of interest and a lot of concern in terms of the support for returning vets and those who have gone through severe stress. I think it's one of those areas that we have become more aware of and more sensitive to as society moves on.

I'd like if you could talk about how that is working in a general way and where you see areas of potential change, because I know there's a lot of thought on that. Also, please expand on the relationship with DND, because there's a terrific amount of work that may not show up under this budget that is covered through the DND process, and that does help.

There are a few other areas, but perhaps we'll start there and see how the time goes.

Thank you.

[Suzanne Tining]

I will ask Keith to cover that.

[Keith Hillier]

With respect to the handling of individuals and some of the challenges, it really starts when the members are coming back--from Afghanistan, for example--and they have a decompression time in Cyprus. There are actually DND caseworkers and some people who formerly served in Afghanistan who are there with the men and women before they come back to Canada to identify individuals who may be having particular problems.

So we, working with DND, are looking to see if there are any potential client issues that need to be dealt with right from the very early stages. When the client comes back to Canada, we can immediately work on a case management plan and try, to the greatest extent possible, to have a seamless transition between DND and ourselves. That's why we are present on bases such as Valcartier, Edmonton, Gagetown, and Petawawa. We're also expanding into others to make sure we have that level of service.

In terms of the case managers, the case manager has a multidisciplinary team available that consists of doctors, nurses, and social workers. They have the ability to make referrals, if necessary, depending on the nature of the illness. For example, with PTSD, they'll refer them to an OSSIS clinic for peer support.

So every client has a case plan that is developed by medical and social work professionals to meet the needs of that particular client, with the view of rehabilitation and successful reintegration to continue their military career or in fact to reintegrate back into society if they choose to leave the military. So that's the general process.

The other thing that's important in the process is that the OSSIS peer support is being viewed very, very successfully. I know there was a lot of information in the material, but other veterans administrations around the world are actually looking to this experience in Canada--the success in the OSSIS peer support--as a way of connecting with those particular individuals.

[Greg Kerr, Conservative, West Nova, NS]

One of the things that I think it is important to understand--and Peter Stoffer has rightly pointed this out--is that a matter of concern will always be there. Not everybody is satisfied with the end result. Not everybody is going to receive the service they want.

Perhaps you could expand on how those dissatisfactions are dealt with and how they arise. It is a matter of concern, I know.

[Suzanne Tining]

I'll answer both your question and Mr. Stoffer's question. I have to say that when I got into this job two years ago that was one of my first questions. The department said they had a very high rate of satisfaction and I said, “Who did you ask?” If you only ask the people who get the service, you probably will get a higher number. I was briefed, and I could provide more information, but we're asking both the ones who are getting yes and the ones who are getting no as an answer in our sampling of services.

When people are not satisfied, I think it is fair for me to say that the redress mechanisms available to our clients are probably more extensive than what you have in the many countries that provide services to veterans. I refer to the fact that if you make an application and are dissatisfied with the decision by the department--it may be that you get a yes, for example, on a disability pension, at 40% of disability, but you feel you should be at 50%--then you can ask for a review by the department, and we'll do the first review. If you're still not satisfied, there's a second review by a higher level in the department. That's two levels of review in the department. Then you can go to the Veterans Review and Appeal Board. In order to prepare you for that, you can provide more information than that which supported your initial application. You have a lawyer to help you go through what would strengthen your case before you go before the tribunal, and then you have the tribunal.

These are all put in place to make sure that if you are not satisfied with a decision by the department, you have redress mechanisms. Of course, with the introduction of a veterans ombudsman, which has been in place for just over a year, you can also appeal to him and say that you're not satisfied with the tribunal's decision. The ombudsman can identify whether or not it's a systemic issue and either raise it in his report or raise it with the minister.

[Greg Kerr, Conservative, West Nova, NS]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

That is your time, Mr. Kerr.

We'll go to the second round now for five minutes.

Madam Foote.

[Judy Foote, Liberal, Random—Burin—St. George's, NL]

Thank you, Chair, for arranging for today's presentation. It has been very informative, but there are questions coming out of it that I'd like to put to you. Some of them you may have to get back to us with the answers, if you don't mind.

On the reference to a bill of rights, I'm wondering if this is enshrined in a piece of legislation.

[Suzanne Tining]

It is not, but there are some binders with information that have been prepared for your information.

The veterans Bill of Rights is signed by the Prime Minister and the Minister of Veterans Affairs. I can go through it quickly.

[Judy Foote, Liberal, Random—Burin—St. George's, NL]

If you have it there for us, that's okay.

It isn't actually a bill that's been enshrined in legislation.

[Suzanne Tining]

It's not a bill, as in legislation.

[Judy Foote, Liberal, Random—Burin—St. George's, NL]

Is there any intention to make it a piece of legislation?