Veterans Affairs Committee on Nov. 19th, 2009

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

In your work you have so many different committees, but do you have a group within the work that you're doing specifically dealing with the economic side, which would be pushing for these kinds of changes to happen?

[Prof. Muriel Westmorland]

Our particular committee obviously has the three working committees under it. That has functioned independently, to some degree, although obviously with the discussions having Veterans Affairs staff present, there's a lot of informal communication as we discuss it, but there has been no separate group struck.

[BGen Gordon Sharpe]

In fact one of the advantages of the way the Department of Veterans Affairs works with this committee is that some of the ideas, as they came up around the table, were taken back into the organization and have subsequently been introduced, and are being introduced, as changes.

In fact, from the economic needs side of it, I found Veterans Affairs to be extremely open and receptive to these ideas. In fact, I would go as far as to say it's a fairly courageous thing to put this kind of a group together, because you're going to get criticized. Even if you accomplish a lot, there are always going to be other things left to accomplish. In the economic needs side, there are several of these major issues that would be a challenge, and they will be a challenge to implement.

For example, if we were to decide not to tax, as Dr. Neary's research indicated in the past, the 75% figure was used because it was a non-taxable benefit. We've kept it at 75% but made it a taxable benefit, so we've actually reduced it further. We don't escalate or have any kind of increase in the base. If you're a young private or young corporal when something happens, that's it. For the rest of your career, your entire pension time is based on that original salary.

We're suggesting strongly that this be pro-rated over the years, assuming that the average corporal would eventually become a sergeant, would eventually become a warrant officer, etc., and in some phenomenal cases, like the officer to my left, eventually a colonel. There is a significant increase that would come if we were to allow that baseline to keep moving forward as a normal career would. There's a variety of those that we have identified and fed back into the Department of Veterans Affairs, and they're in various stages of staffing.

[Prof. Muriel Westmorland]

Don wanted to add something quickly, if he may.

[Col Donald S. Ethell]

Yes, and I forgot. Another senior's moment.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Col Donald S. Ethell]

He puts me to sleep all the time.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

Has it come back yet, Don?

[Col Donald S. Ethell]

I'll think about it. I'll give you a call tomorrow morning.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

I guess part of us trying to make sure that we're moving these things forward is if you had a group, if you pushed to establish a group just to deal with the economic issues, the more pressure you put on—you have so many issues here in this excellent report to look at—I guess I always go back to those economic ones being so very important. If you had a group formed and you spend the next year just hammering away at those issues and coming back to visit us periodically so we could assist you in whatever way we could, if we could improve some of these economic pieces, it would improve the quality of life for so many people.

[Prof. Muriel Westmorland]

We hear you, and Don is actually—

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

Don's got it back.

[Col Donald S. Ethell]

Thank you, and I appreciate your patience, Mr. Chairman.

It's the term “Think outside the box”, because when they started CFAC, the then deputy minister, Admiral Larry Murray, cracked the whip over in the Department of Veterans Affairs and got them thinking on behalf of the veterans instead of the bureaucracy. And that permeates all the way through CFAC and his successor, Jack Stagg, may he rest in peace, and of course Suzanne Tining.

But the point has been made by Brian Ferguson and Darragh Mogan. They have to do it. They prefer to do it. Yes, it may be necessary to go to a legislative change, and that's when you folks get involved, even more so. But to do it within the existing regulations—and if possible if there's an issue or a problem to be solved, think outside the box. How can we make it work within the current authority? I don't work for VAC, but I hear them and I believe them, having seen that they're trying to make it work within the regulatory licence. As you know better than we, there are obviously financial concerns in all government departments, including Veterans Affairs. They're doing what they can within the regulations.

[Prof. Muriel Westmorland]

Is it possible to have Dr. Loisel just make a quick comment? He wanted to respond to Madam Sgro.

[Dr. Patrick Loisel]

Another way to improve the economic situation of veterans is to help them return to a normal civilian life that includes employment. Not only would it help them financially, but it would also improve their self-esteem, their confidence in life and so forth. That would be rehabilitation done the right way. Up to now, it has not always been done well, based on what we have seen. That is definitely the best way to help someone achieve independence.

Obviously, there are extreme cases, but for many, giving them the possibility of employment is also giving them financial independence, and personal pride.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Merci.

Now over to the Conservative Party, and then the much-wanted New Democratic spot will be available. Five minutes.

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I really appreciate the comment that was just made, and that was kind of a follow-in to the question that I had. Really, mental health has a lot to do with or is improved by the feeling of accomplishment, a contribution to society, and that can come through employment. I think if you're working and contributing, it's good for your mental health. On the private and the public employment opportunities that might be available to those who are leaving the forces, as I mentioned earlier, the average age is 43. There are lots of good years there.

So I was wondering, did the committee look at how they could communicate with those who might employ these veterans, and work with them and find out what they see as support that could help that transition to employment, not only with the skills training but also just being in a different work environment?

[Prof. Muriel Westmorland]

That's an important question, and it's one that Patrick and I are particularly concerned about. Having considered “return to work“, we became interested in communication with the employer. This came up in the meeting, and I think Patrick will add to what I'm going to say. But we didn't actually spend the amount of time that it would take to discuss how this could happen. We didn't include a number of steps in the report. But you're right on the money—you really do need to be in touch.

I have since talked to the manager of rehabilitation, Brenda MacCormack, about the importance of linking with employers. It's a different culture. I worked with CEOs of companies for many years, and they used to say to me that they were one culture, and I was the other. I was health and rehab, and they were business, and they didn't really understand what I was trying to get them to do. So in my community, I formed an employer rehabilitation and health care specialist group to break down these barriers.

Then we have the culture of veterans in the military, which is a whole different culture. It is different from one made up of individuals who have never served. So you have a number of things that need to be interpreted. The research will tell you that the middle manager is usually the key person who can make or break a person's employment. It's not the CEO of the company. If they're on board, great, but it's the middle manager that counts, and if you don't have that person buying in to having individuals return to work, it's going to be a huge battle. So that's a big piece.

We didn't get into the specific details breaking it down. Patrick, do you want to add to that from the discussions in the committee?

[Dr. Patrick Loisel]

That is a very interesting issue. Scientific studies done in the past 20 years, and I had a hand in many of them, show that return to work is very dependent, during the rehabilitation phase, on an early connection with the workplace. I am not just talking about veterans but in general. For a veteran who has done little or no work as a civilian, return to work is even tougher, but there needs to be a link with the employer. I think that veterans, as an organization, certainly have the potential to establish ties with employers and to facilitate that transition.

But, to be quite blunt, we need to show them the workplace, what it is. How can someone who has never held civilian employment or who is injured and feels like a lesser person or who has psychological issues return to a workplace? We have to show them that workplace. We have to facilitate their return to work. We have developed methods to help do that.

I believe the report really recommends using this new knowledge so that reintegration into civilian life and employment is very much tied to the workplace.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you, Monsieur Loisel.

Now it's on to the New Democratic Party, and it's I guess somewhat tragic that Madam Sgro isn't here.

You have five minutes, sir.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

I thank my nominee for the opportunity to speak.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

And I thank you, Mr. Chairman, and everyone here today.

Page 28, I can't thank you enough for the words, “provide VIP benefits to all veterans and families”. I have one question there. You have an RCMP member on your panel. The RCMP have been asking for VIP services for quite some time. On page 28, when you say “veterans”, do you include RCMP members, or is it just an oversight that this is not specified?

[Prof. Muriel Westmorland]

We recognized early on that RCMP veterans are veterans. They are looked after to a large degree by the Department of Veterans Affairs, although there are some significant differences. So while we didn't articulate that, we were including them in that grouping.