Veterans Affairs Committee on Nov. 24th, 2009

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

I want to also put on the record—and I say this with great respect to my Bloc colleague—that I have been on this committee and SCONDVA, the defence committee, since 1997. I'm probably the one who criticizes governments, Liberal or Conservative, more than anybody else when it comes to veterans affairs. But I can assure this committee and these witnesses that there has been tremendous movement from 1997 to today. There is no question about that.

Is it everything I like? No. Is it fast enough? No. Is there enough money and people? No. It's our job to keep that pushing.

I've never once discounted, Mr. Chairman, the sincerity and the thoughtfulness of all members of this committee and all those who come in here. I just want to let these folks know that.

I don't think it comes from politicians; I think it comes from these groups. It comes from the bravery of people like Romeo Dallaire, who come forward, sit at this committee, and tell us what he told us: these two pills help me prevent suicide. It takes a lot of bravery for an individual to do that. Those stories, and that analysis of the problems, are why see some movement now. That is why I think the report we got last time was very good.

My question has to do with occupational therapists, who deal with a lot of issues. If I worked on a construction site and broke my back, you'd come in and help me. I don't necessarily have PTSD, I just have a physical injury. Is there some specific training that you take to...?

Mr. Griffis, this is for you as well. I noted in your report that an RCMP officer is part of the panel. Do you analyze what police forces, for example, are doing in the States or in Canada regarding the issues they have on PTSD? Are you working with them to get analysis from them on how they do things?

Again, what training do OTs go through to deal with these very sensitive and sometimes very volatile issues in the home?

[Dr. Elizabeth Taylor]

Thank you for the question.

Occupational therapists are trained in both mental health and physical medicine. I think what's important is the model of practice they come from. I'll give you the simplified version of the model: the person, the environment, and the occupation, or the task they must do. The lens through which they look at the person looks at that person in total. We look at what the mental health is of the person, what the physical health is, as they engage in the occupations in the variety of environments that they must be in. That would be the work environment, the play environment, the family environment. They combine, and that becomes the lens.

In terms of training for PTSD and OSI injuries, absolutely; that's included in our curriculum. I happen to teach that curriculum, so I know what's included in the curriculum. We're seeing this as an increased practice, more and more.

We have to recognize that one in five Canadians has a mental health issue anyway. That means four in five Canadians are supporting somebody with a mental health issue.

I often do the exercise of asking how many people are in the room, because if we do that countdown, that's how many people--

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

One, two, three, four.... I'm all right.

[Dr. Elizabeth Taylor]

In reality, are our occupational therapists well prepared? Absolutely. More important is the lens through which they look at the person--all the environments they interact with, all the roles they must play, and all the things they must do to have a wellness within that role.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Thank you.

Mr. Griffis.

[Ronald Griffis]

The short answer to your question is yes, we appreciate that the RCMP are involved with Veterans Affairs Canada. We have members from the RCMP on the various committees we have, including the client advisory committee in Halifax, Nova Scotia.

So the answer is yes, we do--

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

How about the OPP and Sûreté du Québec? Do you work with them?

[Ronald Griffis]

I was a member of the Ontario Provincial Police for quite a few years. At that particular time, way back then, it was not part and parcel of the program.

I cannot speak on behalf of the OPP today, nor can I speak on behalf of the Quebec provincial police.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Thank you.

Thank you for coming.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you very much, Mr. Stoffer.

Mr. André, Mr. Asselin, do you have any other questions?

[Guy André, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

How much time do I have? Five minutes? Three minutes?

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

You have five minutes at the most, sir.

[Guy André, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

This will be my last question. Last week, a witness told us—and it is something that I have asked Mr. Rossignol to study—that someone who, for example, loses a leg in combat in Afghanistan would get 50% less compensation than someone who loses a leg in manufacturing, in a plant. In Quebec, compensation is paid by the Commission de la santé et de la sécurité au travail, the CSST, and Canada has similar programs.

Is that really right? What do you think of that situation?

[Ronald Griffis]

There's a recommendation in the report that the awards should be brought up to civil standards from civil courts. Apparently they're below civil standards to some degree right now.

[Guy André, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

When I found that out, it seemed very peculiar to me. I think that shows a lack of respect for our veterans. It seems to me that the loss of a leg while defending the country should be worth just as much as the loss of a leg in a workplace.

The other question I would like to ask is about suicide. Last week, witnesses told us about one case. There was a recent case in Granby, a Mr. Couture, who tried to take his own life in Afghanistan after a shell exploded. He had lost a foot in the accident. Later, he tried to take his own life with his friends. Back at home a year later, he shut himself up in his home—this must have been a case of post-traumatic stress—and killed himself. His mother had not been informed about what had happened in Afghanistan. From what I understand, it was because of privacy concerns. For someone 14 and older, in fact, it is a matter where privacy must be maintained. In this case, the soldier had not asked the commanding officer that the information not be revealed. But the army assumed that it should not. So the family was not informed about the events that had happened in combat.

I would like to hear your comments on that. It seems to me that there is a lack of information about what happens in a combat zone and before the person comes back home. The army could reveal some information without infringing confidentiality, in order to help the family support the person who has been in combat.

[Lorne McCartney]

I agree. It's whatever is going to help the veteran in the long term. I'm sure it can be worked out. Perhaps the military person has to give a waiver, but if it's for their own health and welfare, I would think, based on what you've told us, it's a good thing. We wouldn't want to waste that opportunity to help somebody.

[Guy André, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

I worked as a responder in a CLSC for a long time. Eighty per cent of the requests for psychological consultations came from women and 20% from men. Most men who have been in combat do not often ask for psychological assistance. You are going to find them in prison or in detox centres. Men ask for fewer preventative consultations. I am sure that it is the same in the military, because, even though there are women, most are men.

With men, the successful interventions were the ones with support groups, peer groups, follow-ups, sharing between men. You could reach them, but it was difficult.

If you are a veteran in Sept-Îles, for example, support services are often centralized in Montreal or Quebec City. There is no access for the treatment of post-traumatic stress syndrome. That does not help the situation that veterans find themselves in. I think we have to focus our efforts more on peer intervention or on responders on the ground to make the services accessible.

Where are you with respect to training helpers and support groups and ways to make services more accessible to people in need?

[Ronald Griffis]

In this report it indicates that there are several veterans organizations. With PTSD, we learned that when we have PTSD, the best thing for us to do is to ask for help. So I would suggest that perhaps this committee, perhaps Veterans Affairs, somebody, ask the veterans organizations for help in identifying the difficulties, for help in identifying the persons who are going to experience severe trauma with respect to PTSD. Ask for help, and I'm quite certain all of the organizations will give that help, bearing in mind, too, that most of the organizations are on a volunteer basis.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

You're way over your time, Monsieur André. Merci beaucoup.

Mr. Oliphant, do you have a question?

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

I want to get three questions out so you know where I'm going on all of them.

For Mr. Griffis, this is an opportunity for you, I think, to talk about the access to the full range of services and benefits for peacekeepers under the charter, as compared to traditional veterans. I'm wondering whether you had anything you wanted to say to the committee on that. I've just recently met with a peacekeeper and a group seeking access to a veterans' pavilion in St. John's, with the mention they were not able to get in. So I wonder about that one.

Mr. McCartney, my question for you would be this. We consider ANAVETS, the Legion, and all the groups as partners in the work with veterans, and we wonder whether there is particular support that this committee could offer as a suggestion to the government on how we can help you retool to attract newer and younger veterans into your organization.

For the occupational therapist, with the dismantling of dedicated hospitals and a few specialized care facilities--and the veterans' goal is to have local care provided by civilians on a contract basis--how do you do training in an effective way for people who may only see two OSI patients in their community and who are not in a network where others are?

[Ronald Griffis]

I'm aware of the problem that took place in Newfoundland and Labrador just recently. We appreciate the difficulties for peacekeepers, bearing in mind they started in Korea just after the cessation of hostilities. It's one of the things we're working on. It's one of the things the report has addressed. The benefits should be available to all veterans. By the same token, we appreciate that in a great many cases the benefits have to be related to the injury that has taken place. So it's in the report. As I said, we appreciate that was a difficult situation in Newfoundland and Labrador.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Mr. McCartney.

[Lorne McCartney]

This relates to your question. One of the problems with people who are released from the military is they frequently don't live just outside of the gate; they have their own location where their family is, so they move away. One of the problems is that the group of people who understand PTSD and the number of people who would be available to support people who end up in Lethbridge, Alberta, or wherever, aren't there. Basically, to get the full range of treatment, you have to really hang around where you--

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

On a point of order, Mr. Chairman.

It is difficult to hear the answers with all the conversations going on between members of the committee.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you, Mr. Oliphant.

I mentioned this before at the previous meeting. We need to be mindful that the side conversations need to be kept to a minimum and at a low volume, because it's difficult to hear the witnesses. Frankly, it's a point of respect, too, for the witnesses who have come here and invested their time.

Please continue, Mr. McCartney.