Veterans Affairs Committee on Nov. 26th, 2009

[Louise Richard]

I just wanted to make a point, if I may. Let's take post-traumatic stress, for instance. For our World War II veterans with PTSD, back then unfortunately, they didn't have the diagnosis. That's thanks to the modern veterans who have made that happen, but what difference is it for an older gentleman's post-traumatic stress disorder and a 20-year-old today? The treatment approach is different and the attitudes are different.

One must realize, too, when we're talking about our young men and women in uniform, that at ages 18 to 22, their brains have not completed development, so these people are basically set up to have post-traumatic stress disorder or to come back with some kind of brain injury. I mean, it's kind of a given that this will be an ongoing issue.

Also, it's become also a catch-all term, this post-traumatic stress disorder, because, as I was saying earlier, there are many who have chronic illnesses or complex symptoms that don't fit in the box of what Veterans Affairs acknowledges or recognizes. So you're thrown in under this label of post-traumatic stress disorder or depression or some kind of psychiatric condition.

The problem is that PTSD, yes, is a severe anxiety disorder, and there are many issues under that alone, but there are a lot of physical things happening with an individual who suffers from serious post-traumatic stress disorder. For these physical ailments that are secondary to the primary diagnosis, if I may say it that way, we're struggling immensely to get these conditions treated, approved, or even just some compassion from the department in understanding that it's not a clear-cut label, that there's a lot that goes under this, and that one must tread with care.

I think that people who are psychologically injured or who have severe disabilities need to be in a separate category. Right now, for our card, it's a K number; it's for everyone under the sun. Everyone kind of has the same process. I think that for people with special needs we should look at a second category on our card, something like P, for “Priority”, because it's permanent, what we have. If we can acknowledge it once, and say, “Yes, you have this, and we'll treat it”... Let's not repeat it every single year, ongoing, which adds to the trauma of the condition.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Mr. Gray.

[Capt(N) Perry Gray]

Sir, I also agree that you cannot treat everybody the same, but there has to be some standardization, and that's the problem: things have to be applied objectively, not subjectively. What we're seeing is that there's too much subjective application, which results in constantly wearing the veteran down as they grieve that they didn't receive it for this and they didn't receive it for that.

There has to be a very clear and universal application, be it for financial benefits or other benefits, and it shouldn't be based on where you served, when you served, or how long you served.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you, Mr. Gray.

Now we have just two members left for questions.

Mr. Andrews, for five minutes.

[Scott Andrews, Liberal, Avalon, NL]

Thank you very much.

I'm going to go quickly. As you know, five minutes is not long in going.

I'm a new member as well, of Parliament and of this committee, so please bear with me and some of my questions. It's a learning process for us. I'm very interested in going forward. We have to learn from the past, but we need to move forward.

Mr. Fraser, I think this document is fabulous. I think it really outlines everything that's in here and we need to take a serious look at it. Can you give me one more recommendation that's not in here but that you would like to see?

[Hugh Marlowe Fraser]

I can give you a few, but one of my newest issues is the treatment authorization centre, and that follows up on what Louise and Perry are saying. What happens is that Blue Cross is a contracted service for your treatment benefits, your medications, and all those benefits once you get your card. A lot of the problems are that we have chronic conditions, some severe, and some not so severe, but in any case, they're chronic, and every year there's a reapplication. You go to a service provider and let them know you're a veteran and they... Most people go in there with a credit card and get their treatment, but with us, there are forms, they're waiting for funding payments, and the treatment authorization centres just don't have the information.

I was injured in 1991. They have a couple of pieces of information on me about my initial injury diagnosis, but they don't even know that I have a cervical spine fusion. They don't have any of the information. These are the people making the economic decisions on your aids to daily living, your prescriptions, and your treatment benefits. It has to be re-examined. You need to have people in the department, or the decision has to go to the case manager or your counsellor, who may know a little more about your case, because it's extremely frustrating every year when you have to go back for treatment benefits.

I was 38 when I got injured and I'm now 46, and every year... I get denials all the time. It simply blows my mind. I bring it back to the policy-makers, like Darragh and the people I sit on the committee with. “Oh, that can't be”, they say. I bring them the letters your department sends me and they're like, “Oh, yeah.” And a lot of the issues, decentralization... They need a better communication structure. We can go on and on.

Communication would be my next point. It's great to dust off the Prime Minister and the minister and get them out there when they have PR issues with regard to veterans on Remembrance Day, but for communication on veterans issues and benefit grids to their clients, it's almost a don't ask and don't tell attitude. That's kind of from the Second World War, when you weren't allowed to have any money, and that ideology kind of transferred over into the department, right? It's not an income test any more, but back in the old days, for the Second World War vets, it was. That's why some of them are still hiding out in the woods. You mention VAC and they run, because they still think they're going to lose something.

[Scott Andrews, Liberal, Avalon, NL]

Okay.

[Hugh Marlowe Fraser]

So for two issues that are outside of the report, one is communication and the other is the treatment authorization centres.

[Scott Andrews, Liberal, Avalon, NL]

Gotcha. Thank you so much.

Ms. Richard, have you read the recommendations in this report?

[Louise Richard]

Yes, I briefly went through it.

[Scott Andrews, Liberal, Avalon, NL]

There are two things. The special needs advisory group was a part of the New Veterans Charter Advisory Group. Do you believe they've missed something in helping to put together this particular document? You know what recommendations are in here. From your point of view, what is missing?

Again, it's a similar question: what is missing? The special needs advisory group did have input into this particular document.

[Louise Richard]

Absolutely they did and they have more than one recommendation. The thing is, we have yet to see recommendations implemented,and I think that's kind of the pattern of what's happening here. We need to see some action. You know, it's words, it's nice, and it looks good, but let's see some action. Let's see things happen.

[Scott Andrews, Liberal, Avalon, NL]

Okay.

Mr. Gray, are you a veteran yourself, sir? I'm at a loss on the two charters and your comments about why you're not covered under one, or you're covered under one or under two. I don't understand it at all. I don't know if you could try to give it to me in simple terms why there are two charters and why you are not covered under the charter. I'm at a loss on your comments about that.

[Capt(N) Perry Gray]

You're not the only one. I am too. What I said at the beginning when I was making my first comments is that originally this was supposed to be a modernization of the Pension Act. It then mutated into the creation of a new piece of legislation, but it didn't bridge, it didn't continue the old charter material.

As I said, there are 45 separate pieces of legislation concerning veterans. The primary ones that you're probably familiar with are the Pension Act and the new Veterans Charter. What should have been done when the modernization task force was established was to look at what was existing in legislation, update that, and make sure that everybody received the same consideration. It didn't get done.

As I said, the recommendations that are in the report that you're talking about reflect the fact that things were not carried forward from the old to the new. Until such time as those recommendations are implemented, there's going to be disparity between the various categories of veterans.

[Scott Andrews, Liberal, Avalon, NL]

Are you saying the recommendations in here are a good thing?

[Capt(N) Perry Gray]

I don't know because I haven't read the report.

[Scott Andrews, Liberal, Avalon, NL]

You haven't read them?

[Capt(N) Perry Gray]

I'm saying that the over 200 recommendations have to be considered and discussed. If this new Veterans Charter is truly living legislation, then changes have to be made, and the attitude has to be that this is not a perfect piece of legislation.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you, Mr. Gray.

Finally, we'll go to Mr. Lobb for five minutes.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Thank you very much.

There are two topics I want to touch upon, if you'll bear with me. One is the financial aspects and the other is communication. Hopefully we will have time for both.

The advisory group lays out some pretty specific pieces in there about finance. Today you've mentioned some of your own opinions as well as those of people who have presented some of the financial shortcomings. We take those as a committee and they will be in our report.

I'd like to focus on the relationship, which we've mentioned, with the youth among our CF members and so forth. When I was in Wainwright this summer, it just dawned on me how young they are and how old I'm getting.

I want to get your thoughts on something, seeing as you're all former CF members. Is there a component that the Department of National Defence and Veterans Affairs Canada can add with regard to financial literacy? I would suggest, and my own experience would suggest, that no matter how much money you receive, or how much money you're paid, if you don't have those tools, it may never be enough. It may never be invested or spent the right way. This isn't directed at CF members. This is directed at a whole population.

Mr. Fraser, perhaps you'd like to start on that.

[Hugh Marlowe Fraser]

We do mention communication in the report, but outside of the report, there are always all kinds of strategies in the Department of National Defence, which my colleagues could... There are messaging systems and there is information we give out in a very effective way. I've brought to the attention of VAC the point that they should really start utilizing these, because we're operationalized.

When you're in uniform and it's mission on, you're not thinking about disability pensions and that kind of thing. There are seminars. There are retirement seminars. They have to get out there and effectively manage the information, with financial management being part of it, to say that if you get injured, you're going to get this money, and this is what you should be thinking about, and these are some of the strategies.

Nobody knows. Even today, I'm on base out there, and I have individuals I sail with, and they still don't even know what VAC is. A communication strategy really has to be developed and the department is aware of that. We've told them at committee. That's what I would say. I don't want to take up all the time here.

[Capt(N) Perry Gray]

When I was an officer, a part of my responsibilities was to make sure that the personnel under my command had financial counselling if they needed it. One of the problems within Veterans Affairs Canada is that the caseloads of the area counsellors, the primary service-givers to the clients, are just too heavy to allow the counsellors to do financial counselling on top of everything else.

An area counsellor will have anywhere from 500 to 1,200 clients. There is just no way that they can see that number of people and make sure they are being financially responsible. It's a case of either creating another task for these people or hiring more people to make sure there's financial counselling. That's a question that still needs to be asked.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Thank you for those comments.

Again, I can understand that, honestly speaking, with everything going on, if you are in that situation, it is probably the last thing you're thinking about. That's why I say that relationship between DND and VAC needs to be developed. This isn't the first thing you do when the injury happens. It's something that becomes part of your life steps or your life process.

The second piece is communication. That was touched on. I think everybody struggles with communication, whether it's in your business world or with your staff or whatever. Being honest here, I think everybody can improve on their communication.

I just wonder... There are some things in here about rehabilitating relationships and so forth. From your own experience, can you say there is something that worked for you or something that you have seen work for a colleague as far as communication goes? It's very vague. I wonder if you can give us some specifics about what worked for you guys.

[Hugh Marlowe Fraser]

I have related some points in the report and to VAC, but I'll give you just one that I think is valid. At the basic recruiting level, when you first sign up--and everybody goes through basic recruiting--you get the culture, the rank structure, and all this information taught to you in an intense atmosphere. I can tell you that I still remember all that stuff.

There's not a word about VAC, but that's the time when it should be introduced. We need to say that this is their disability insurance, that if they get injured this is the department that looks after them, and that if they ever get injured, here are some scenarios of what will happen. That's the crux. Get it in at the lower levels when you first join and you will remember it for your whole career. Of course, updates are needed, but I would say that should be the one point of communication.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

That's a great suggestion.

Mr. Gray.