Veterans Affairs Committee on Dec. 8th, 2009

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

I now call the 37th meeting of the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs to order.

I'd ask that all visiting media turn off their cameras now, please.

This meeting is televised, and we want to welcome our witnesses today: Lorraine Bartlett, Carletta Matheson, Margaret Hogan, and Bette Hudson.

I have three other names on the order paper. I take it they're in the audience observing.

We'll be beginning with opening statements. How many of the witnesses have opening statements? All four of you have opening statements. Could you give me an idea of the length? Are they about five minutes? Very good.

We'll start off with Madam Bartlett, with your opening statements, and then we'll go to a traditional round of questions afterward.

[B. Lorraine Bartlett, Member, Widows on a Warpath]

I want to thank you for meeting with us, the Widows on a Warpath, today. I am sure you are here out of genuine concern for our difficulties dealing with the bureaucracy around the issue of agent orange. I feel very confident you will do everything in your power to resolve this issue to the satisfaction of all concerned. I ask you to strongly consider everything we have to say in a fair and unbiased manner.

I would like to start by introducing the Bartlett family. First of all, I'll start with my late husband, James F. Bartlett. I just want to show you his picture. Now, this was the last picture of him before he was diagnosed with his cancer, so he looked good there. He was born on May 2, 1946, and died on June 15, 1984. He enlisted in the military on November 30, 1957. Jim spent a good portion of his military career in Gagetown. He had two terms in Cyprus, some time in Germany, he spent some time in Ottawa, and then his last posting was to Halifax.

He was diagnosed with colon cancer in March 1983. In April 1983 he had major surgery for the removal of the colon cancer. Following the surgery Jim had radiotherapy, which resulted in his having radiation enteritis. In March 1984 the cancer had spread to his lungs, and he was started on chemotherapy. By the time of his death he had tumours--and I say tumours because there were many--as large as 15 centimetres. They ranged from 9 centimetres to 15 centimetres in length.

While in Gagetown, Jim was exposed to agent orange. From my information, he was not only exposed to agent orange doing the exercises out in the field, he was directly sprayed with agent orange while on exercise in a Jeep. Did agent orange and other chemicals cause his cancer? I think so.

Then I have my daughter, Tracy Ann Bartlett. This is Tracy's picture--a beautiful lady. She is now 37 years old. Tracy was born with multiple disabilities. She has been labelled with a very rare condition. It's ODDD, for short. It's oculodentodigital dysplasia syndrome. It's extremely rare. I don't think there's any condition in North America. At the present time she is living with a family in a private home under community services. It has been a real blessing in our lives to have her there, because this family took Tracy in for respite care. She was given four to six months to live. That was 13 years ago. So that tells you what love and care can do for somebody.

Birth defects are caused by chemicals such as agent orange, agent purple, agent white, etc. Tracy is still a mystery to the health care providers, and most of the time they are at a loss as to how to treat her. About two years ago she was sent home from the hospital, and we were told to just sit beside her and hold her hand because she wasn't expected to live. Was her father's DNA altered because of contact with chemicals such as agent orange, therefore causing her birth defects? I strongly believe so.

Then I'll talk about my son. This is a picture of James. This picture is about a couple of years old.

James was born on November 10 in Halifax. He has chronic asthma, for which he spent much of his younger years in hospital. While in grade 3, he was diagnosed with attention deficit disorder with hyperactivity. These two conditions have had a profound impact on his quality of life.

At age 27, James was diagnosed with colon cancer. He had major surgery and chemotherapy for this. He was diagnosed with liver cancer about three years ago, and we were told his chances of survival were zero without surgery and 30% with surgery. However, during the surgery the doctor couldn't find any sign of cancer, which was a blessing. It was revealed after the surgery that a second test had recommended further testing. The surgeon failed to provide us with that information and went ahead with the surgery anyway.

Today, James appears to be cancer free but will undergo further testing in February. Every day of his life he has had to wonder if, when, and/or where the cancer will return.

Was James' cancer a result of his father being sprayed with agent orange and other chemicals? I strongly believe so.

Jim's death still affects me and my family today. Gathering information, writing letters, and preparing for this meeting have caused me to relive the tragedies in my life. I have had to open wounds that I thought had closed, and I have relived my loss.

Concentrating on past pleasant memories has given me the strength and determination to continue with my quest for justice. Ever since the death of my husband, the death of what could have been a normal healthy daughter, and the near death of my son, I have felt something wasn't right. I didn't quite know what it was until I learned about Jim having been directly sprayed with agent orange and other chemicals. It all fell into place and made sense to me. The spraying of chemicals seemed to explain all the health issues in one family, especially since there is no family history of most of these conditions.

I am now searching for the gift of truth. I feel the actions of others have determined my life and the lives of my children.

You have the opportunity here today to turn it around for all widows, their families, and future generations affected by the spraying of agent orange. We need to look forward for our children and their children. We need an apology. We need justice, and we need to be treated fairly.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you, Madam Bartlett.

Now we will move on to Madam Matheson.

[Carletta Matheson, Member, Widows on a Warpath]

Good morning. You'll have to bear with me.

I'm Carletta Matheson, a Widow on a Warpath. This morning I am going to tell you about my experience with Veterans Affairs and access to information.

In March 2009 I began an investigation into the ex gratia program. I wanted to know how many cheques went to each district around base Gagetown. Specifically I wanted to know how much money went to each district in Greg Thompson's riding. I made the request through access to information, asking for a list of people who received the ex gratia payments in those locations.

On April 16, 2009, I received a list of 2,193 names, but I was not given the information I requested. This is a common theme amongst widows' stories. The ex gratia program ended on April 1, 2009, and even though the program was over, I knew people were still receiving cheques. So I requested a second list.

My name appeared on this list. I have not received any compensation. I have never received compensation, but my name was on the list of people who had. Because my name appeared on this list I thought I would receive compensation. The next day I called the Department of National Defence and informed them I had not received a cheque. I was told my name should not have been on this list. The cheque should have been in my hand.

This began a nightmarish journey. I received a letter from the department saying that my name appearing on this list was a computer error. I wondered how many computer errors there were. They asked me to send back my original copy. I said, no way. In July I received a third list of names from Veterans Affairs. My name was not on this list. On the third list I received, the names appeared not once, not twice, but multiple times. The bottom of this list states, and I quote: “clients may also be caregivers and will/may appear on the report multiple times”.

What does that mean? How can one person receive an ex gratia payment more than once? Why did so many people receive multiple cheques when so many victims received nothing? Why are we being refused when there's money left over? How much money has actually been paid out if multiple names and mistakes appear on this list?

Isn't the appearance of my name on this list a violation of my privacy, especially when I didn't receive a cheque? Is this a violation of the federal law?

The Department of National Defence and Veterans Affairs have put me through so much. They have put me through hell. My husband served 36 years in the forces, and I believe the chemicals at CFB Gagetown killed him. Despite my husband's sacrifices, I have received no kindness and no consideration from Veterans Affairs. I am disgusted, hurt, and most of all angry.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you, Madam Matheson.

We'll move now to Ms. Hogan.

[Margaret Hogan, Member, Widows on a Warpath]

I'd like to thank the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs for inviting me here today.

I'll start off by introducing myself. I'm Margie Hogan, a civilian who lived in Fredericton Junction, a community very close to CFB Gagetown, daughter of Herbert and Doris Hogan, and the youngest of four siblings. I represent the civilian side of this travesty.

Pesticides, herbicides, chemicals, and dioxins contained within the spray program used at CFB Gagetown from 1956 to the present is making people sick and is killing us with illnesses and diseases—2,4-D and 2,4,5-T, picloram, with a side order of dioxins. Dioxins and furans are considered toxic under Canada's own environmental act. It's making people sick. It's fat soluble, and the dioxins are passed up through the food chain from animals to humans. I have lost quite a few family members and I'm sure I'll lose more. I am affected as well.

With the ex gratia payment, we know that the April 1 deadline for all applicants was extended. However, the date of February 6 remains shut. To be fair to all applicants, you cannot open one door and lock the other. I know that cheques were still being issued in my area as late as November 2009.

Caretakers who were paid fully or in part by the province or in accordance with the Department of Health were able to apply for and have received the $20,000 ex gratia payment as sole caregivers off the backs of the clients they were hired to look after. However, a spouse who was left behind was not entitled to apply on behalf of their spouse.

Civilians in communities around CFB Gagetown have been eliminated because of the so-called five-kilometre limitation. However, at Gagetown fair in 2009, the Minister of VAC, while meeting with us, made reference to a 20-kilometre radius on more than one occasion. If in fact it was 20 kilometres, why was only five kilometres indicated on the ex gratia form?

The forms were designed to discourage, frustrate, and start a maze of complicated processes while dealing with VAC.

A fair number of physicians are refusing to fill out the physician statements for the reason that there isn't one of the illnesses indicated, but upon going to another doctor...the connection is made. Some doctors flatly refused, point blank, to fill out the physician statement or sign it, because they were in dispute with the Province of New Brunswick over their wages and they were using this as a way of always bringing people back but not looking after their patients' best interests. They were proving a point to the government.

The Minister of Veterans Affairs stood up in the House of Commons in June 2009 and stated that all could apply for the agent orange pension. However, the first week after this announcement, a few civilians did receive the application, but the response from the Veterans Affairs office was that civilians were not entitled to apply for the agent orange pension; it was for the military and those in the service only. The minister did not put that stipulation in his announcement in the House. A few civilians did receive the application form, and when they asked for the status, they were told that the applications were sent out in error.

In Gagetown, in 2009, the Minister of Veterans Affairs, Greg Thompson, indicated that no civilians received the application for the agent orange pension. I can sit in front of you today and look you in the eye and tell you I did receive one. I am a civilian. To the best of my knowledge, there have been no pensions awarded to civilians.

There were issues with an independent affiliate with Veterans Affairs. A gentleman was helping people with their process so that no one got left out. However, when asked to show ID, he could only produce a driver's licence, as the business cards that were issued were supposedly not back from the printer. He was identified as an independent affiliate of Veterans Affairs. He would call widows at 9:30 on a Saturday night asking for the status of their application, whether they had received the $20,000, and what was the status of their appeal.

We asked further questions about this gentleman as to what his authority was, who he reported to, who paid him, and what was his purpose. No one could come up with anything. It wasn't until November 5, when we went to the civic centre in Woodstock, that we spoke with the ombudsman and got them to look into it. We came to find out there was no job description for an independent affiliate because there was no such title.

This individual was a self-proclaimed advocate who had been affiliated with the minister from the beginning of the whole process of putting this together. There was no security clearance for this individual who was asking the widows questions. Since there was no independent affiliate, as I said, there was no job description available. Then we were told that this gentleman actually was a known individual with Veterans Affairs who was trying to do a great service for those people who were having difficulty with their application form. However, because he identified himself as an independent affiliate of Veterans Affairs and the Minister of Veterans Affairs' office itself, widows believed they had to tell him the status of their claim, whether or not they received the $20,000, or if it was going to an appeal. This was not necessarily so.

I'm going to speak a bit about my family.

My father worked on the base. He trucked gravel there when they were building it. In fact, he was displaced from Petersville before the base was built. I lost him in 2001 from complications of diabetes--TIAs--mini strokes. He had to retire in 1984 as his health was getting worse.

This is our family--in 1966, a typical civilian family in a neighbouring community. This photograph was taken on September 3, 1966. Ten years later, we had another one taken. My brother died on March 25. I'm not apologizing for it because this is the brass tacks facts of what is going on in New Brunswick. He died of cancer. He worked on the base in 1967 and 1968. He helped remove brush that had already been sprayed by the deadly chemical agent orange to get rid of the brush.

My mother has thyroid issues. I have COPD and diabetes. My father is gone. My sister suffered miscarriages. My niece fell sick. This has to stop. My fiancé was working on the base in 1984. He went through the gate and showed his pass to cut the wood. The plane went over and sprayed them. They were outside. He got sprayed. The MPs arrived half an hour later, wanting to know why he was in the closed area. He had shown his pass at the gate. He went through. They waved him through as they did every other day. They did not know at the front gate that they were spraying. If they did, they didn't tell him or they wouldn't have let him go through. Now he has abnormal cells in his body. They can't determine what they are. He has high liver enzymes. His liver is swollen. We're still going through doctors, and this is not over for me yet.

I have two sons. My youngest son, Nicholas, was born with stomach issues and infections. He was diagnosed with Crohn's disease and colitis and he still has stomach issues today. My oldest son, Christopher, had to have surgery at the age of two to have a testicle removed because it was deformed.

These are the pictures. This is just a sample family of the civilians. We are sick and we are dying, and we did not ask to be a poisoned population. We did not ask for that.

I want to say that the Government of Canada is ignoring their own environmental act with this issue. However, let an oil company spill furnace oil on the ground, and Environment Canada is there immediately to pick up and clean up. If the spill is bad enough, homes are destroyed and people are moved. Nobody is even thinking of cleaning up what happened in New Brunswick. It's still there. It's still active. It's still in the ground. It's still making us sick.

I ask you to look in your hearts today and remember you were human first before you came into power. I ask who is going to step up to this travesty resulting from the spraying at CFB Gagetown and do what is morally and humanly right. Compensate all who were affected and clean up the contamination on the base and the surrounding communities. There needs to be something put in place for civilians, because we have nowhere to go with our issues--not Veterans Affairs, not the agent orange pension, as I said earlier. We have nowhere to go.

Veterans Affairs says it's for the ones in the military or in the service, but no one is looking after the civilian interests at all.

I strongly, strongly, strongly suggest that in recognition... The civilians who originally owned the land assisted in the building of the base, worked on base either as DND employees under the province, as contractors or woodworkers; if it wasn't for these civilians, the base would have taken a lot longer to build. Therefore, civilians are just as valuable and important to Veterans Affairs as the military and should be compensated as such, including benefits, pensions, and recognition for their sacrifices. There needs to be protection for the civilians. As of right now, we have none. We are losing our loved ones; we've got nowhere to go. It needs to stop.

There needs to be protection--if not through Veterans Affairs, as I said, I strongly, strongly suggest a department for civilians affected by DND Veterans Affairs. That needs to be created for civilians.

I thank you for allowing me to speak today.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you, Madam Hogan.

Now on to Bette Jean Hudson.

[Bette Jean Hudson, Member, Widows on a Warpath]

Ladies and gentlemen, good morning, and thank you for having us.

I am Bette Hudson, a Widow on a Warpath.

Before continuing, I wish to introduce to you three of our members who have journeyed with us. They are Abbie Magee, a civilian widow; and Judith Wright and Gwen Knox, military widows.

As well, we have Daniel Feighery here. Daniel is making a documentary on Gagetown on the agent orange issue.

I did not come here to blame parties. I came to state concerns regarding the treatment of widows by the Department of Veterans Affairs and the Government of Canada.

I represent a group of 100 widows who have grave concerns. Without great elaboration, we have all lost our husbands too soon because of the colossal blunder of spraying agent orange and other chemicals at and near Base Gagetown in the fifties, sixties, seventies, eighties, and beyond. We need answers and we need closure. We depend on this committee to provide these answers. Justice and righting the wrongs of the past can and should be done here today.

To begin, we have been unjustly treated regarding compensation through the ex gratia payment of $20,000. From the day of the ex gratia announcement on September 12, 2007, widows were eliminated by a date--February 6, 2006. Our husbands were to have died on or after that date.

Ladies and gentlemen, do you think for one second they wanted to die? Worse still, do you think they should have died on a date of a government's choosing? How awful that a political date was chosen, the date the current government was sworn in.

We note that the end date of April 1, 2009, has been extended--one door opened, the other slammed in our faces. We stood no chance of receiving this payment because of the date. If you apply for yourself, you must suffer one of the approved illnesses. As caregivers, as each one of us was, the same thing applies. You must be ill. If you are reasonably healthy, forget it. Fairness? I don't think so.

Adding insult to injury, it was announced that any leftover moneys would be returned to general revenue. In other words, widows and their families are not worthy. Compensation for all victims of this tragedy was promised. This is a broken promise.

We would like something done about it. Yesterday we presented our demands. I hope everybody got a copy of those demands. If you didn't, we can supply them at the end of this session.

Very quickly, here are some--and there are many more--problems with widowed applicants for an agent orange pension: one, impossible and unrealistic proof; for example, the husbands were to have been soaked in agent orange; two, one widow was told by VAC that to receive her husband's documents, she must pay a $260 archival fee; three, the process of getting information from doctors and hospitals, etc., is time-consuming and expensive; four, repeating your story to umpteen employees because no one really knows your file; five, witnesses who are not believed must have another witness for the witness; six, numerous letters from Veterans Affairs are signed by different people; seven, general feeling of hopelessness, helplessness; eight, widows who receive letters addressed to their deceased husbands--one letter was received on the eleventh anniversary of his death, addressed to him.

There are many, many problems.

We're not youngsters anymore, but we fight for what is right. We will continue until we receive justice for them. We speak for them, they can't. We are not going away. When we are gone, our children will take it up. This tragedy cannot be forgotten. People are suffering, they are dying. Unfortunately, generations to come have the same fate. Please help us do something about this.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you, Madam Hudson.

Thank you, ladies, for your testimony.

We will now go to rotation rounds of questions. The first rotation is seven minutes, and the first party is the Liberal Party.

Madame Sgro, seven minutes.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Welcome to all of you today. I realize you've come back a second time, but sometimes you have to come back many times until justice is done. I applaud your perseverance and your dedication. It is admirable.

Before I ask the questions, I want to take a moment to again recognize your courage and determination, not only for yourselves but for thousands of other people who are out there and are suffering, who just don't have the strength and the voices that you have. I'm so glad for what you are doing. Many have lost a partner or friend, and the children have been robbed of having a father. The fact is that agent orange, chemicals, have clearly entered our water and our air and seriously caused major problems not only in New Brunswick but in surrounding areas.

For me today, having you here is not about assigning blame. It's not about pointing fingers at who was in government, who is, and who wasn't. It's about trying to right a wrong and starting a beginning of a process that would ultimately give you the satisfaction of knowing that the issue has been thoroughly examined and looked at by whoever is necessary within the government today. CFB Gagetown and all of those on it, I believe, were used as guinea pigs. The government of the day permitted the testing of agent orange, a chemical that we know now to be incredibly dangerous. It's time that we all see that a fair restitution is paid and an apology is given to all of those who lived in Gagetown at the time and who continue to live there.

I do hope that today you will get a fair hearing, that you will leave here feeling that you got a fair hearing, and that this could be the beginning of a process that will help all of us understand the issue better and do what's necessary to make sure this never happens again.

I've tabled a motion with the committee, to be dealt with at the appropriate time, calling for a public inquiry. I understand that's an issue you have been asking for and that you feel very strongly about. I'd like you to elaborate a bit more on why you feel so strongly that we need to have a judicial inquiry on the whole issue of the agent orange.

Whoever would like to address that issue can speak. Do you want start, Ms. Hudson?

[Bette Jean Hudson]

I think everybody in the country needs to know what has happened at Gagetown. It might be a long time ago, but people are still ill and they're going to get ill in the future, unfortunately. I think a public inquiry certainly would answer a lot of questions and lay a lot of fears away.

As I said, people need to know what's going on, and that's what would do it. A public inquiry would certainly do that. So we're all for a public inquiry, yes.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

There has been a lot of work done. A lot of studies have been done. You're not satisfied with what has come out as a result of those studies?

[Bette Jean Hudson]

No, we're not. We're not, for our widows. We feel that we have not been treated fairly by the government. A public inquiry would help clear it up for the widows and all the victims of agent orange. We've not been happy with how the whole thing has been handled. We would like to see an investigation into the ex gratia payment, how it was formed, how it was disbursed, how the cheques were disbursed, the major diseases that were presented. We're hearing all kinds of stories in our areas about cheques being handed out, for example, for carpal tunnel, being hard of hearing, and things that are not on that list. We're hearing all kinds of stories about that.

We're talking to people. As a matter of fact, we have some letters signed by people who received $20,000, for example, for carpal tunnel. We have the proof here.

So we're not agreeing with how the ex gratia was set up, how it was handled, or how the cheques were disbursed. We're not agreeing with that. If we did not have that proof we wouldn't bring it up, but we do. It's available, if you would like to look at it afterward.

So we're not happy with that and we're not just an ex gratia group. What we want is fairness.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

On the issues in the United States, could you explain that a bit? The rules of how the United States government is dealing with those who were present at the time of the chemicals and so on are different. They're being treated very differently from how we are treating them, as far as recognizing various illnesses is concerned. Can you elaborate a bit on that?

[Bette Jean Hudson]

Could I let Margaret deal with that? She's been working more closely on that.

[Margaret Hogan]

Could I get you to repeat that please, Judy?

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

For those who are eligible for the ex gratia payments, there are very different rules in the U.S. versus here in Canada. My understanding is that in the U.S., if you were at all on the base or in the area with the spraying, regardless of what your problem was, you automatically receive it, whereas here we have very specific diseases that you have to have in order to qualify for the $20,000 payment.

[Margaret Hogan]

The Americans are including more conditions whereas the Canadian side is not. In order to receive the $20,000, you have to have one of those conditions. But it's very limited on this side of the border, because they're not acknowledging all the conditions. The American side has added Parkinson's. We've not seen that added to the Canadian list yet, but everyone talks about the study from the Institute of Medicine and the connection. It doesn't matter if you're south of the border or in Canada; the effects of this chemical on your body would be the same. I'm not sure why we're not acknowledging that on this side as well.

[Bette Jean Hudson]

I think you were perhaps talking about the presumptive clause, that if your boot was on the soil when agent orange was used and other lethal chemicals--dioxin-laced chemicals--you automatically got an ex gratia or you were paid. It's not like that here in Canada. They don't have the presumptive clause that presumes that if you're in the area when lethal spraying takes place you'll be compensated. That's the difference between Canada and the United States.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

Thank you very much.

[Margaret Hogan]

I'd like to add something, if I may, please.

There are issues with the fact-finding mission study. You mentioned the studies that have been done. How can we really trust those studies if they were designed to come out with a certain conclusion before the study was completed?

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

Mr. Chair, could I ask the clerk if he would distribute the motion at this time that I had sent over earlier?

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

We'll deal with that at the end of the meeting.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

I realize that, but I think it could be circulated so that members could look at it before we have to vote on it.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

If we're talking about business at the end of the meeting, we actually have a motion before the committee already, by Mr. André. We finished the meeting. If you remember, the time ran out. So I think it would be best for us to deal with that after the questioning is done and the witnesses have been dismissed on both pieces of business.