Veterans Affairs Committee on Feb. 9th, 2011

[Tim Wall]

CASP has not. CASP would be very much interested in supporting that kind of initiative, because, as I think I indicated in my presentation, there's been very little research done specifically in terms of veterans. There's been a lot done in terms of those who are actively and currently serving in the military, but very little in terms of veterans, not just in Canada but also in the U.S. and in other countries. CASP simply does not have the resources to engage in that kind of research.

[Guy André, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

I'm surprised by that because you were invited as a witness of the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs to talk about the problem of suicide. Perhaps it isn't your responsibility. Maybe it's our place to wonder about who we invite as a witness, not yours.

I am only going to ask you questions about certain things you mentioned. You said that, in the United States, the general statistics tell us that 20% of soldiers and veterans commit suicide. You said that, in the United Kingdom, there is some data indicating that soldiers and veterans are two or three times more likely to commit suicide, compared with the rest of the population. You also said that close to 20% of veterans commit suicide. But you didn't give statistics for Quebec and Canada. Why? Is it more difficult to get data?

We read the statistics on the United Kingdom and the United States, but here, when we talk about suicide in relation to soldiers and veterans, we're told that it's very difficult to get that data. In committee meetings, various people have told us that the numbers are high, whereas others tell us that the numbers are comparable with the rest of the population. We have heard all kinds of things, but no one can give us exact data. Can you tell me why?

[Tim Wall]

Because they don't exist. It's not there.

Your point is a good one. I think that we need to be looking specifically at the issue of suicide among veterans. When we did our own research to look at what was currently available, in preparing for a meeting with you today, we couldn't find anything. We consulted with some of the people in Canada—for example, Dr. Paul Links, who is one of the leading researchers in suicide in Canada and who actually sat on the expert panel that the Canadian Forces have put together. He said it's not there. There's a huge gap in the research. You're quite right.

[Guy André, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Okay.

But I imagine that the worlds of the departments of defence, both in Great Britain and in the United States, are secret and hidden. It's very difficult to know what goes on in those environments. It is very difficult to get obtain statistics. Does that mean that the other countries are more open than here when it comes to gathering statistics on suicide rates? Do you understand what I'm saying?

If we can get data on suicide in Great Britain and the United States and we can't get it here, I imagine that the departments of defence in those countries are more open than Canada's is.

[Tim Wall]

It's my understanding that even the research that comes out of the U.K. and the U.S. is limited. It's certainly not as extensive as it is in terms of the kind of research that's been done with those who are serving in the military. But it would appear that they are a little more in front of this than we are in terms of looking at the issue of veterans.

I'm not exactly sure why that is. My speculation would be that some of it may have to do with the fact that both of those national governments have identified suicide as a public health priority, and with that comes resources.

[Guy André, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

There are resources and a greater openness.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you.

Mr. Stoffer, five minutes, please.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Wall, thank you very much for coming in today, sir.

That figure of 4,000--where does that figure come from? You said that last year 4,000—

[Tim Wall]

Yes. It was about 3,750. I believe that comes from Statistics Canada, but I'd have to double-check that.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Okay. That's fair. Because the reality is that.... I know that when I spoke to our health minister in Nova Scotia a while ago on this, they indicated that it's very difficult to ascertain how many committed suicide. If a coroner's report says “drug overdose”, that person may have overdosed on drugs willingly, but it doesn't say “suicide”. A person who has a car accident in front of a semi-trailer, for example, or off a bridge, may have committed suicide, but it shows as “accident”.

So the figures can actually be much higher. Am I correct?

[Tim Wall]

Yes.

It's our belief that the numbers of suicides that actually take place are under-reported. In fact, one of the things that appears in the strategy for a suicide prevention strategy that we developed...it does address the issue of improving and expanding surveillance systems so that we can actually get more accurate statistics.

But you're right: there are many deaths that were likely a result of a suicide that were not reported as such.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

Right.

Well, as you know, Mr. Richardson and his wife, of Ottawa, suffered a severely unfortunate loss. I was very proud to see the House leader of the Conservative Party, as well as members from all parties, gather yesterday in solidarity, not just in the House, but at a press conference that was held in the lobby of the foyer of the House of Commons. Six of our colleagues were wearing hockey jerseys. It was quite a show of support for the family in that regard.

The government also should be congratulated for what they did a couple of years ago when they instituted what was called the national cancer strategy, where they coordinated the efforts of the provinces and various organizations to develop best standards practices and everything else. I hear this a lot too--and we all hear it--that health care is a provincial responsibility, but the government has shown once and in several other cases, such as SARS, AIDS, etc., that it is willing to participate in a national system--in this case, cancer.

I think it would only follow that all of us--not just government, but all parliamentarians--must ensure that this very serious public health issue, which unfortunately is growing, and for a variety of reasons, is seriously attended to. It is something that I think we should all look at in that regard. I can't speak for the government; they're very capable of speaking for themselves.

On the veterans' side of the issues, do you have any veterans or military personnel on your volunteer board?

[Tim Wall]

Let me just go through our roster. We are just in the process of electing a new board of directors. There was at least one board member, who's no longer aboard, who was a veteran. Certainly in putting together our new board we're looking for diverse representation. That would be something we would be looking for.

[Peter Stoffer, NDP, Sackville—Eastern Shore, NS]

If you were the President of the Treasury Board and you were cutting a cheque in the way that you would like to see it done across the country, what would the initial cost to the government be in terms of setting up a national system? Obviously the long-term investment would be a return. As you had indicated for Scotland, if you can reduce x number of deaths, then you can actually have it paid for through cost efficiencies in that regard. What would be the initial ask to the government for that initial national strategy?

[Tim Wall]

I'll try to answer that question in a couple of ways.

We can refer to what the costs were, what the investments were that both England and Scotland made in terms of their national strategies—and I do have those figures. Our organization doesn't have the resources to cost out a national strategy, so I can't speak to what it would be.

I'll just use Scotland as an example. Their strategy was divided into two phases. In the first phase, which was from 2003 to 2006, they invested the equivalent of just over $14 million. Another amount just under $5 million was set aside for national activities that would support the strategy. An additional amount just over $13 million was set aside for the second phase, which was from 2006 to 2008.

In terms of the cost for a coordinating body, we have projected some figures for that. We're looking at about $700,000 for a coordinating body.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Schellenberger]

Thank you.

Mr. Mayes.

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

Welcome, Mr. Wall, to the committee.

Unfortunately, the past misguided mental health policies of former provincial and federal governments really triggered the Senate report out of the shadows. From that, basically, there is a mental health commission and a strategy.

Unfortunately, I started to read the report but didn't get right through it. Did they touch on suicide prevention and those issues around mental health in the study?

[Tim Wall]

I have read the report in its entirety, and there's one sentence about suicide prevention, and it's a passing one.

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

That's interesting, because I really think that should be incorporated as part of that strategy.

I don't want to get caught up in data, because we're talking about people here, we're not talking about data. The important thing is the people. Mr. André said something that triggered....

In your statement you said that in the study of the forces in the U.K. they found the number of suicides were two to three times higher. But you set an age group, did you not?

[Tim Wall]

Yes.

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

So it was not all Canadian Forces; it was an age group. I'd just like to make sure that data is straight, because data can say a lot of things. We've got to be careful.

[Tim Wall]

Yes. And that was the only study we could find.

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Right.

There was one thing I wondered about that. An unfortunate experience when I was in the mining industry was that three miners committed suicide within a month. It was almost like an association. They were all friends. I wondered if that is a common thing that happens. It's what I would call a cluster or association suicide. A lot of the suicides in this particular group, as far as the forces are concerned, could be the association with young men and women who maybe have gone through the same circumstances and seen one of their colleagues do it. Would it make that threshold easier?

[Tim Wall]

For somebody who is vulnerable, if they know of someone who has died by suicide, it can increase the risk for them. There's a certain sense of, okay, I have permission. Somebody else did it, so they may view that as a very viable option for themselves.

The contagion effect I think has been better documented among young people, who can react more impulsively.

In Canada there are three high-risk groups: first nations peoples, youth, and older adults. Some of the research we've looked at suggests that actually the rate of suicide among older adults is higher than with youth, but they tend not to get the same attention as when there's a death of a young person. When we look at certain segments of the veterans population, there are so many risk factors there that, as I said in my presentation, it makes them particularly vulnerable.

[Colin Mayes, Conservative, Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Unfortunately, through what we see, we have a society that has, I think, diminished the value of life, the sanctity of life. Youth have grown up in that type of environment. I'm just wondering, I know we can tie the issue to, for instance, combat duty or some of the challenges of living in the Canadian Forces, such as all living together in one spot. That's a challenge. Have you done any studies or gleaned any information with regard to the Canadian Forces and some of those things in the Canadian Forces that could be improved to minimize some of those outcomes?