Veterans Affairs Committee on April 1st, 2010

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the sixth meeting of the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs.

I will introduce the witnesses in a moment, but I'd just like to tell members that we'll reserve 15 minutes at the end for business. We agreed in the last meeting that we want to review the schedule again. That will be distributed to you later. As well, you will be getting new documents for the notice of the meeting today. I think the wrong ones were distributed.

Now I'd like to welcome Chief Superintendent Alain Tousignant, as well as Inspector Richard Boughen.

Do both of you have opening remarks?

[Chief Superintendent Alain Tousignant, Director General, Workplace, Development and Wellness, Human Resources, Royal Canadian Mounted Police]

No, just me, sir.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Okay, Chief Superintendent. Please go ahead with your opening remarks, and then we'll go to the regular rounds of questioning.

[C/Supt Alain Tousignant]

Good morning, Mr. Chair and members of the committee. Thank you for inviting the RCMP to appear before you today.

I would like to introduce Superintendent Rich Boughen, the acting director general of occupational health and safety, who is with me today to answer questions on policies and programs.

The RCMP is the largest police force in Canada. Our police officers make up the bulk of our workforce, with over 19,000 regular members. Most of our police officers diligently carry out traditional police functions. We want nothing more than to protect our members from all potential risks, but no one can predict every possible factor that could negatively impact on operations and ultimately on the health of our police officers.

In the tragic event of a member suffering a workplace disability, the RCMP has established a number of programs and services to assist the member. As part of these programs, we make available the opportunity for disabled members to transition to civilian life or reintegrate into the workforce and continue to contribute to the organization while receiving essential care and treatment.

When it is confirmed that a member has suffered a work-related disability, financial compensation for the loss of quality of life is available pursuant to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Superannuation Act and the Pension Act. These could be considered the RCMP's equivalent to a workers' compensation plan.

The Pension Act is administered exclusively by Veterans Affairs Canada. The compensation is based on the extent of the disability and family circumstance, as assessed by medical evidence, and paid in accordance with rates set out in the act.

As of March 31, 2009, the RCMP had 8,087 individuals receiving a disability pension. The average age of an RCMP disability pensioner is 58 years, while the average of those still serving is 48. Under the Pension Act, disability pensioners receive a monthly disability pension for life.

In 2006, the RCMP was extended an invitation to join the New Veterans Charter initiative undertaken by Canadian Forces and Veterans Affairs Canada. At that time, the RCMP sought to conduct an analysis to determine how the proposed benefits would meet the needs of our RCMP disability pensioners.

The RCMP, including a member of the Staff Relations Representatives, worked with Veterans Affairs Canada and the Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions to analyze and compare both the financial aspects and the support available to RCMP disabled members with those offered under the New Veterans Charter. The analysis included a needs assessment survey, interviews with stakeholders and review of literature.

The comparative analysis revealed that the RCMP already enjoyed many of the benefits and services introduced in the new veterans charter and, due to a difference in organizational and disability pensioner dynamics, did not require certain other benefits being offered.

Since then, the RCMP, in collaboration with Veterans Affairs Canada, has implemented a transition interview pilot and entered into partnership with Canadian Forces and Veterans Affairs Canada to address the mental health needs of RCMP employees through access to established operational stress injury clinics. The RCMP continues to examine additional areas for improvement and ways to support disability pensioners. The RCMP and Veterans Affairs Canada continue their long history of joint initiatives with the transition interview pilot and other collaboration.

Not only is it the RCMP's responsibility to take care of its employees, but it is also the right thing to do. We continue to work to ensure members are provided with appropriate coverage in the event of a workplace incident and that those receiving disability pensions also receive care through our many programs and services.

In conclusion, the RCMP takes seriously the matter of work-related disability. We are satisfied that our members are adequately protected in the event of such occurrences. As a proactive organization, we continue to monitor how we're meeting the health and safety needs of our members. The RCMP's challenge is to evaluate ways to best serve its disability pensioners as demographics and trends related to certain pension conditions evolve.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

We will go now to the Liberal Party for questions.

You have seven minutes, Mr. Oliphant.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

Thanks to both of you for being with us today.

As you know, we are undergoing a study of the new veterans charter. Your presence actually prompts the question about your not engaging in the new veterans charter. It's kind of an unusual discussion we're going to have. Most of the groups who have come here have talked about what it's like to have been included in it.

I want to push a little bit into the analysis of two areas. Your remarks were focused positively on the programs you already have to ensure that those benefits and that care are extended to your members, such that it was not necessary to have the new veterans charter. I also want to ask if you felt there was something missing in the new veterans charter that caused you to not want to be a part of it. We're trying to improve the new veterans charter, so if there's some analysis in that needs analysis....

I'm going to admit I've not read everything my staff has given me on your analysis of this. I've got a pile of paper. I will read it afterwards to make sure I'm up to date.

I want to give you a chance to talk both about what you are doing--we can get into PTSD and OSI at some point if we want--and about what is not in the charter that could have prompted you to be in it.

[C/Supt Alain Tousignant]

I'll provide a quick overview, then I'll turn it over to Inspector Boughen to provide more details.

Back in about 2005-06, the RCMP conducted a thorough analysis of the new veterans charter to try to determine if we should adopt it and work with it. The conclusion that came out of the analysis, which was done in conjunction with the work done with the OSFI, was that the system and benefits we presently have meet the needs of RCMP members. The Canadian Forces employees and mandate are somewhat different from those of the RCMP, so our needs are different.

Based on those analyses, including over 1,500 surveys and interviews with people receiving the benefits right now, and having run numerous scenarios on the financial aspect of the benefits, it was determined that remaining with the program we had better met our needs. I'll ask Rich to provide some more details.

[Superintendent Rich Boughen, Acting Director General, Occupational Health and Safety Branch, Royal Canadian Mounted Police]

Does that answer where you're going or do you need more details of the actual scenarios that were run?

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

The scenarios might be helpful, but they may be too detailed for a quick answer.

Following up on that, did Veterans Affairs consult RCMP about your programs that maybe were better than what they were putting into the new charter? If we're trying to improve the new veterans charter, maybe the RCMP has some models that would actually help veterans.

[Supt Rich Boughen]

I think it's important to know that Veterans Affairs is the one that administers the Pension Act, so anything that our members get under the Pension Act, they already have. It's one and the same for that aspect.

Here's what we found in running the scenarios, which were in simple terms. If one of our members had a disability of a certain percentage, was a certain age, and had so many kids, with a whole bunch of variables added in, how did that compare to what the new veterans charter would come out with? We were looking at the end goal of the equation. We did 20 different scenarios, and 19 times out of 20—in 95% of the cases--what we presently have--and had at that time--served our membership better.

That was because of our specific demographics, as Chief Tousignant talked about. Typically, our members are retiring or releasing at an older age. At that time, we were using duty to accommodate where the military wasn't so we could hang onto our members longer and find meaningful employment from within the ranks. We were also able to care for them while they were still there.

The things we were able to offer under the Pension Act suited our needs and presently suit our needs. We haven't been informed of any recent changes that would make us look again at the new veterans charter and take the time and effort to re-examine those scenarios.

[Rob Oliphant, Liberal, Don Valley West, ON]

So there are two things and one is financial. We may come back to you to ask for some help in looking at those scenarios to see if they may apply to veterans, even with a demographic difference.

On the soft side, the new veterans charter has the two halves. One has to do with financial compensation for disability, the lump sum payment, and then its dovetailing with the Pension Act. The other is the soft side on care, rehabilitation, and all of that. Did your analysis also include that set of options under the new charter?

[Supt Rich Boughen]

Yes. Because we release at an older age, the softer things like re-education--vocational training or whatever kind of training--really didn't apply to us. Because our careers are longer and in a lot of cases very diverse, a lot of skills are picked up. When members are released, they have a lot of baggage from which to draw to get different employment outside.

As for when they're injured and are still part of the RCMP, we are able to provide the necessary care under our health benefits. Whether it's a prosthesis or some kind of assistance to make them get better, it's done. We do that upon retirement as well. Even though they're released, we still pay for their prostheses and hearing aids and that kind of rehabilitation.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you very much, Mr. Boughen. That's right at seven minutes and four seconds.

Monsieur André, pour sept minutes.

[Guy André, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Good morning. I am glad you are here today.

I have some questions that are a bit general. We have already met with a number of Veterans Affairs officials. From a military perspective, they talked to us about the levels of post-traumatic stress syndrome. They described the various situations that cause members of the military to suffer from PTSD while on missions. Since you are an RCMP official, I would like to hear more about situations that cause PTSD and the services that are currently available.

In addition, we heard statistics on members of the military who suffer from post-traumatic stress syndrome. The percentages were quite high. Do you have any statistics or percentages on RCMP members suffering from PTSD?

In your overview of the options, the advantages and disadvantages of the Veterans Charter, it talks about the disability and lump-sum payment. It says that moving to a lump-sum award will be seen as a loss to many members of the RCMP. That issue of the lump-sum payment in the Veterans Charter is something that we, the committee members, are interested in right now. Could you tell us about the disadvantages you see as compared with your current disability pension?

[C/Supt Alain Tousignant]

I will say a few things on that.

When you talk about post-traumatic stress syndrome, you have to go back in time two or three years. That is when we really started getting a sense of how big the problem was, recognizing the signs and ways of perceiving the problem. As I mentioned in my opening statement, we now have a joint program with Canadian Forces. It is a pilot project to identify these individuals and get them into a phase of treatment. That is what is happening right now with that situation.

Rich, can you add to that?

[Supt Rich Boughen]

When talking about PTSD, as Chief Tousignant said, only within the last little have we really understood that although PTSD and operational stress injuries have been identified within the Canadian Forces and other military, those types of symptoms are also very prevalent in policing. Although there isn't a lot of research done on it, some of the preliminary evidence shows us that the symptoms exhibited in PTSD, such as sleep disorders, addictions, depression, and anxiety, those types of things, also occur because of issues around what's called “compassion fatigue”.

Compassion fatigue comes from dealing with the unfixable suffering that police officers in general—not just the RCMP, but police officers everywhere—are confronted with on a day in, day out basis. Those symptoms may not reach the level of PTSD where they can be identified as that disorder, but they're very real, and we have several members who are dealing with them. On top of that, there are situations within the policing world where people are confronted by very dangerous and deadly situations, where the traditional PTSD--if I can say that--would exhibit its signs and symptoms.

As the chief talked about, we are in collaboration with the Canadian Forces and VAC on the joint network of operational stress injury clinics. Without getting into too much detail on that--they're not run by us, so I don't want to overstep my boundaries--they offer programs to help people through those tough times. They help them with depression, anxiety, and those types of things.

On top of that, we've also completed two pilots looking at restoration, education, and development. It's a resilience-based type of program for our police officers who are in very specific situations. The first pilot was for traffic analyst reconstructionists, who deal with the death and destruction of traffic crashes. The second one was for forensic identity specialists, who go to horrific crime scenes.

They're not necessarily in harm's way, like the military on the front lines, but they experience these compassion-fatiguing incidents day in, day out as part of their duties. We're just realizing that those things take a real toll on the human soul, so we're looking at that. We've had great preliminary results.

[Guy André, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Thank you.

I want to hear about your hesitations in terms of joining the New Veterans Charter program and the lump sum.

[C/Supt Alain Tousignant]

Currently, the minimum base pay at the RCMP, as soon as officers enter the force, is higher than that of the Canadian Forces. I do not have the figures, but typically in the RCMP, for someone starting at the first level, the officer level, the annual starting pay is around $77,000. And obviously there are increases in the pay scale.

Take, for example, someone who stays with the RCMP and who receives compensation. In our studies, we analyzed the scenarios that Mr. Boughen mentioned. From a financial perspective, the numbers were very clear. In 19 out of 20 scenarios, the financial benefits we have right now do a better job of meeting our needs than those under the New Veterans Charter.

[Guy André, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

You mean the pension for life.

[C/Supt Alain Tousignant]

Yes.

Also, one of the key advantages is that if the member dies, the person surviving them continues to receive a certain percentage of the compensation.

What all this means at the end of the day is that it was important for us to keep the program we have now. At that time—we are talking about 2006—it was important not to join the New Veterans Charter.

[Guy André, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

From that perspective.

[C/Supt Alain Tousignant]

Yes, from that perspective.

[Guy André, Bloc, Berthier—Maskinongé, QC]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thanks, Chief Superintendent.

Just for clarification, because I saw that a couple of members had some concern, did you mention a starting salary of $77,000?

[C/Supt Alain Tousignant]

Approximately, yes.