Veterans Affairs Committee on Nov. 17th, 2011

[Colonel Andrew Nellestyn]

Indirectly.

We did not set out to do that because the project would never have an end per se. But indirectly the answer to that is yes, in terms of veterans recounting their experience elsewhere, because we did have Canadians, albeit post-Vietnam, in Vietnam in the reconstruction commission. But the answer to that is, indirectly, yes.

[Joe Daniel, Conservative, Don Valley East, ON]

Excellent.

Okay, that's it for me.

[The Chair, Conservative, Greg Kerr]

Ms. Mathyssen, for five minutes.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much for being here today and providing this information and testimony.

I'm of the understanding that modern-day vets, when they transition out of the military, are told quite specifically that they're not entitled to any burial benefits. It would seem there must be some need. Obviously if Major-General MacKenzie is conducting a campaign of fundraising and you're hoping for $1 million, there must be a profound need.

My concern is, and my question to you is, should modern-day veterans be dependent on this charity? It seems to me that they made a contribution, in many cases a profoundly significant contribution, and yet here they are reliant on the charity of others. If that charity doesn't come through, what on earth happens to them?

[LGen Louis Cuppens]

I'm not certain as to what is being told to releasing Canadian Forces members concerning their eligibility for a funeral and burial benefit. I would expect that the program is explained to them, and their eligibility to that program is also explained to them, but I'm not certain.

Remember, I did indicate also that there are releasing reserve members who have served in Bosnia, Cyprus, and Afghanistan.

The second part, of course, is this business of fundraising. The fundraising isn't solely intended for just burials. When I gave my presentation to you I said there were a number of other programs that we run. One of them is grave-marking. That's done with both donation moneys and with government moneys. We also have requirements to repair and refurbish equipment in our Fields of Honour, which we operate. We also need to maintain our columbaria. They all cost money.

We're looking ahead to the future, and at present we're doing some major renovations to the Field of Honour in Pointe-Claire. These are all done with private donation moneys.

I trust I've answered your question.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Is it appropriate, though, that the grave-markings and the repairs be from donated money? Isn't there a role for government and Veterans Affairs in terms of honouring, in death, our veterans?

[LGen Louis Cuppens]

Yes, and you noticed in my presentation I said "a veteran is a veteran is a veteran". That's my firm belief. That's the belief of the Last Post Fund. However, that is not the reality of the government program that we administer. We do the best we can with what we have. There is a subtle distinction, which is maybe not clearly understood, in how veterans are treated by Veterans Affairs Canada.

The traditional veteran is eligible for programs because of his service. It's called service-based. So if you were a World War II veteran and went overseas, you were eligible for a whole range of programs, the last of which is their funeral and burial program.

If you're a modern-day veteran, as was passed in the recent act—the act has a long, long name, and I won't bore you with it--this particular act is needs-based. The veteran has to demonstrate that there is a need for some assistance and then that need is answered by Veterans Affairs Canada.

As you would expect, many modern-day veterans who are superannuates would not have a financial need to have the funeral and burial benefit, but some would and some do. So there is quite a distinction between the types of eligibility requirements of Veterans Affairs Canada, one being service-based—all you had to do was serve. But the modern-day people—those since Korea—are needs-based.

Does that help make it clear for you?

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Yes.

Colonel Nellestyn, you referred to the films, the documentaries, that have been created and produced and the importance of these modern-day veterans in terms of their contribution to the face of Canada, to our character as a nation, and that discrepancy in honouring their service. I find that very difficult to understand. Why, other than as a cost-saving measure, would we respect the service of some and not others?

[The Chair, Conservative, Greg Kerr]

Ms. Mathyssen, you've gone over your time, but I'll allow you a really quick question, if you were going to ask a question.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Okay.

Both of you described calls for help. Colonel, you described suffering that you've seen in these documentaries. I suppose probably there's not time now, but I wonder if you could describe, General Cuppens, the nature of the calls, and you, Colonel, the suffering that you understood through these documentaries.

[The Chair, Conservative, Greg Kerr]

Very briefly, General, please.

[LGen Louis Cuppens]

I'm an immigrant and a Canadian. We are a special people. We live in such a free country, with all that we have, and when you project yourself out in the military somewhere where people do not have what we have, it's a natural thing to try to better their lives in some way. Our soldiers, sailors, and airmen have been on record doing just that since we went on our first deployment in the Boer War. I could give you anecdotes afterwards, many examples of the generosity of these young men and women we send in harm's way.

On the calls, some I was personally involved in had to do with very sloppy administrative practices within the Department of National Defence of individuals' records, medical releases. Had their records been properly maintained and had they been medically discharged, they would have been eligible for a funeral and burial benefit. But these poor people weren't. They were living on poverty row, and we helped them.

[The Chair, Conservative, Greg Kerr]

I'm going to have to say that if we do a final round perhaps the colonel will get a chance then, because we are well over time now.

Mr. Lizon, for five minutes.

[Wladyslaw Lizon, Conservative, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Good morning, gentlemen.

I want to begin with some clarification. General, you referred to changes from the program review in 1995. When were the previous eligibility criteria established?

[LGen Louis Cuppens]

I can't give you an exact date. It would have been somewhere in the post-World War II period under the Pension Act. I just can't tell you the precise date. I'm sorry.

[Wladyslaw Lizon, Conservative, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

Would it be in pensions out of the Department of Veterans Affairs Act in 1986?

[LGen Louis Cuppens]

Just like the Pension Act, a number of changes were enacted in Parliament to the veterans burial regulations. Major changes were made at one time, but I can't recall the precise date. It had to do with the provision of services, embalming, the change of rates, and who would be eligible.

All I can tell you is that I know that prior to 1995 the means test, the threshold where you would be considered eligible, was cut in half.

[Wladyslaw Lizon, Conservative, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

The reason I'm asking this question is because I know 1995 was a very significant year, not only for the benefits you mentioned, but for large groups of veterans. I would like to remind the members of the committee, including honourable member Mr. Casey, that it was introduced in 1995, and the Liberal government introduced changes to the Veterans Act and some benefits. One of the changes cut off allied army veterans from veterans benefits. This was not changed until 2009.

I was working on those, and there's still a group of veterans—I guess there's a name for it, the veterans who were fighting in underground or resistance groups, I think that's the proper terminology—who were cut off at that time, and benefits were never restored for them. For allied army veterans, their benefits were restored in 2009. Just to clarify, these changes were not made by this government. It was the Liberal government of the time that made these changes.

General, I would like to ask you a question in regard to the presentation you made. You used the quote of Colorado Springs. I'm disappointed to hear that you wished that we had similar sentiments in Canada. In your view, why is it that we don't have the same sentiment? With your being from the Netherlands, how do you view people of those countries, European countries that were liberated by Canadians? Because Canadians, as we all know, did not fight on this soil; they went somewhere else to help others. Could you maybe comment on this?

[LGen Louis Cuppens]

Sure, and thank you for your question.

I was in Colorado Springs, and there's a large mountain there that was right behind our headquarters. It's called Pikes Peak. It was named after a U.S. army surveyor who came from Maine; his name was Zebulon Pike. I used to be quite brave in telling the Senate committees and the government committees who came to visit that Canada has never been invaded except once. Mr. Pike, for whom the mountain is named, was killed at the battle of York, and that town is today named Toronto. I used to smile when I said that.

Europeans have a closer feeling for the service of veterans than we do in this great country of ours because of a number of things. One of them is our size. As a youngster going to school in the Netherlands, I couldn't help but walk by cemeteries where veterans are interred. They're all over the place. You would find the same in England, the same in Belgium, and the same in France. This is an immediate thing for you. You see it and you ask, and people tell you what happened.

In Canada it's very difficult for someone who lives in some cities and towns, and in rural Canada, to stroll by a place where a veteran is interred. We pump it all up on the November 11, and for some distinguished battles like Beaumont Hamel and others, but we don't do a good job of it. So we concentrate it all in the week that has just passed. This program that Andy has talked about will certainly harden the hearts, and make Canadians proud of service, but we have so many issues in our country that the veterans issue doesn't percolate to the top all the time.

You mentioned Colorado Springs. Mayor Makepeace is an aboriginal. She used to conclude all of her speeches by saying “This is Colorado Springs, where every day is military and veterans appreciation day”. No wonder; there are 250,000 military in that area. It was a source of pride for me to quote that because I think that's a sentiment we should try to instill in people.

I trust I answered your question.

[The Chair, Conservative, Greg Kerr]

Thank you very much.

The next one is Mr. Storseth. If you want to share your time, you can certainly do so.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

Absolutely, I'd love to share my time, if I have any left, Mr. Chair. If perhaps you'd give us as much time as you give the opposition, I would be most happy.

Thank you, gentlemen, very much for coming. Thank you for the service to our country, and also for your dedication to our veterans as you continue on.

I have lots of questions about the Last Post Fund. As a Legion member, it's something I've known about for a long time. I find the history of the Last Post Fund very interesting. As I understand it, it was based on private donations to help World War I veterans predominantly, or veterans of that era anyways.

How long did it take before the government became involved in the Last Post Fund, and started funding it? Do you have those numbers?

[LGen Louis Cuppens]

I do. Mr. Arthur Hair discovered a Boer War veteran in a hospital in Montreal in 1909. This is where we started. Hair himself had been in the Boer War, and he recognized this veteran lying on a gurney. He had the same discharge paper in his pocket that Hair had. That's how he found out he was a veteran. He collected moneys in 1909 and they started interring these veterans with private moneys in the cemetery in Montreal—I'm not sure which it's called, either Côte-des-Neiges or Notre-Dame. There's a separate plot. They purchased a little chunk of land and there are probably, in my estimation, 30 or 40 of these veterans from that period and World War I interred there. When it filled up, they moved over to the adjacent cemetery and started buying land there.

The Government of Canada took over responsibility for the funeral and burial program with public moneys for the first time in 1921. They transferred full responsibility because in 1921 Veterans Affairs was also in the business of the funeral and burial program. But in 1995, I think—that's what I put in the testimony—all the responsibility for the burial of all veterans was transferred to the Last Post Fund.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

Thank you for that date.

I have another question for you in regard to private donations to the Last Post Fund. In the last five or six years, since I've been elected, I've definitely seen an increase in the number of people attending Remembrance Day ceremonies. As you said, a lot of the time it ramps up around that individual week of remembrance that just passed.

Have you noticed an up-tick in your private donations over that same period of time? What's been happening with the private donations?

[LGen Louis Cuppens]

I wouldn't say it was a dramatic increase in the amount of moneys we've collected. What happens is that it's event-based.

Your chairman would remember that in Nova Scotia, about four or five years ago, a large number of unmarked graves suddenly were identified. Right away the donation money just flowed—big amounts—because that was something that caused Canadians to be angry. We've had bequests given to us of some substantial amounts of money—$300,000, for example—by generous donors, but these are blips. There has not been a steady flow of moneys.

At present, I would hesitate to guess that our donation accounts across Canada hold somewhere in the order of $140,000.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

When it comes to a veteran, what would your definition of a veteran be? What is the definition of a veteran?