Veterans Affairs Committee on March 15th, 2012

[The Chair, Conservative, Greg Kerr]

We can make sure that's passed along.

Mr. Strahl.

[Mark Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Zimmermann, as a British Columbian with a fine logging heritage, I can well imagine the tragedy of your case. I'm glad to hear that the company worked with you to trailblaze in integrating you back into the workforce.

You mentioned that you believe that the DND and Veterans Affairs interface needs to be improved. Could you expand on what you meant by that and what steps you think both organizations need to take to better serve veterans as they're leaving the Canadian Forces?

[Wolfgang Zimmermann]

That question is key. What happens is that individuals who acquire a disability while in the service tend to stay within the Department of National Defence for an extended time. In many ways, that's similar to what the private sector would call “light duty”, as opposed to taking concrete steps at intervention early on. What we know is that if you've been out of work, if you've lost your concrete attachment to an employer, by three months there's already a 25% likelihood that you will never be going back to work again. After two years, it's much worse. These individuals are kept within DND for a long time without any significant employment relationship. They're simply kept and paid within the department. Then, all of a sudden, after two to five years, they get discharged and they have to deal with VAC in rebuilding their lives.

Once you've lost that attachment, once you go beyond six months, it is extremely difficult. In many cases, what started out as a physical injury is compounded by a psychosocial condition. It can also be a straightforward mental health challenge. That's why you need to look at triaging the individuals. This is what workers' compensation boards do. You look at it right up front and ask if there is a significant potential that an impaired individual may not go back. If that is the case, you need to look at intervening rather than dragging the process out for years. Past a point, as we know from global best practices, there's little hope of this individual ever going back to work.

[Mark Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

You also mentioned that efficiencies could be found by adopting proven models.

Are you talking about the WCB process, or are there other models that you were referring to?

[Wolfgang Zimmermann]

What I was referring to is a real easy rehabilitation system model that individual WCBs have in place. Coming out of Afghanistan, you have some 3,200 individuals with significant disabilities. Our WCB in B.C. deals with around 3,500 permanent disabilities every year. You have a tremendous resource to draw on. You have service providers such as OTs and PTs that you could not have if you were a national organization with relatively few resources. There may be great potential there for pooling some of the resources to get these individuals back to work. I'm not suggesting that there be a change in the control process. But on a pilot basis there may be some great efficiencies, because they know their backyard inside out.

[Mark Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

I have a question for Mr. Blackwolf. Like Ms. Mathyssen, I've certainly seen the homage that is paid to aboriginal veterans in my community, with its 31 bands, and certainly every band office that I've been in has a memorial there to their aboriginal veterans.

Briefly, how do most aboriginal veterans receive their care from Veterans Affairs? Is it on reserve or is it off reserve, through, perhaps, the provincial health care systems?

[Richard Blackwolf]

Well, most of those we're familiar with deal directly with Veterans Affairs Canada. They can be on reserves.

We've just arranged a stairlift for a Vernon first nation World War II veteran. The way the house was built, he had to get himself upstairs in order to get access, so we had our regional officer there contact VAC. They came out and we made arrangements to have a stairlift system put in for him.

There's usually no problem in obtaining services for World War II and Korean vets. Basically, if you find a problem and it goes through the system, it usually happens pretty quickly.

[Mark Strahl, Conservative, Chilliwack—Fraser Canyon, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Greg Kerr]

Thank you very much.

Now we'll go to Ms. Papillon for five minutes.

[Annick Papillon, NDP, Québec, QC]

Thank you.

I want to thank all the witnesses for coming here today. I really appreciated their remarks. I also agree with their recommendations.

Mr. Jenkins, you piqued my curiosity when you talked about your meeting with the Minister of Veterans Affairs regarding Ste. Anne's Hospital.

We are actually very concerned about long-term health care. The new veterans charter does not really mention that issue, although it is very important.

The beds at Ste. Anne's Hospital are becoming available every year because people are getting older. In addition, fewer modern veterans go to the hospital because they need long-term care and a bit of time off. Ste. Anne's Hospital could be used to provide them with that, especially as we have noticed that it has a waiting list.

Did you discuss that with Minister Blaney?

[Gord Jenkins]

Yesterday evening, the minister and I had a brainstorming session. He suggested—and this is only an idea—launching a pilot project to provide modern veterans with access to two hospitals, the Perley and Rideau Veterans' Health Centre, in Ottawa, and the Edmonton hospital whose name I cannot recall.

What's the name of the veterans hospital in Edmonton?

[A voice]

Glenwood.

[Gord Jenkins]

Glenwood...?

Yes, that's it. My apologies.

Modern veterans' needs in terms of long-term care have to be established. This is just an idea, there is no....

[Annick Papillon, NDP, Québec, QC]

There are currently no such services available. I have talked to modern veterans who told me that they sometimes need time off. When they come back from a mission, they spend a few months with their family. They need that time off so that their family, their children and their spouse don't suffer. They do not want their condition to affect their family. For instance, we could be talking about people suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder.

[Gord Jenkins]

There is the Helmets to Hard Hats program, the inspiration for which came from a U.S. program and which helps provide jobs for veterans.

The Walter Reed hospital is the only one of its kind in the United States.

It's a centre like the Heart Institute here. The one we have in Ottawa is probably the best in Canada. They didn't spread the Walter Reed centre for veterans out into 50 states. They had one place where they could focus on this.

So the idea is to focus on veterans, for the...not new; the term has just come up, the people coming back from Afghanistan who have all sorts of problems. These are being researched now by Veterans Affairs, but we're going to have to start practising it pretty soon. As I mentioned, they're coming back. They're arriving.

Did I answer your question?

[Annick Papillon, NDP, Québec, QC]

Yes, you did.

I have one last quick question. Have any of our guests heard about the Scientific Advisory Committee on Veterans' Health, implemented by the Minister of Veterans Affairs? That committee was planning to look into this matter, to ask veterans for their advice and examine certain related documents. Does that ring a bell? Do you have any information?

[Sylvain Chartrand]

The advisory committee was created largely because of the Pascal Lacoste case. Unfortunately, the party currently in power has already concluded that there is no link between depleted uranium and that individual's health condition. A committee was created, but the current government has already concluded, through Minister Blaney, that there is no link.

Just recently, Mr. Lacoste said on his Facebook page that the Department of Veterans Affairs would provide him with psychological and physical care. But that's not what he fought for; he fought to establish a link between depleted uranium and his medical condition.

It seems that the minister has gone back on his word. The advisory committee appears to be quite discrete and inaccessible. What is going on? We don't know. Who is going to testify, who can provide information? Everything is kept secret.

[The Chair, Conservative, Greg Kerr]

Thank you very much.

We now move to Mr. Lizon, if he's feeling up to it, for five minutes.

[Wladyslaw Lizon, Conservative, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses for appearing here this afternoon.

The first question I have is for Mr. O'Brien.

Mr. O'Brien, in your speech or your presentation, which we later found you took from Mr. Jenkins—I don't know how true that is—you mentioned the importance of people being connected to the veterans community. I guess you mean people who look into casework. As you mentioned, if those people are not there, the service is either delayed or denied. Can you maybe shed some light on it? My understanding is that if the people in the department who look after individual cases do not have full knowledge—perhaps because they are not trained properly—that would on some basis deny or delay the service that is actually needed.

[Robert O'Brien]

I'm sorry, I'm not going to answer your question very well, but I'm going to give you a personal opinion. The Veterans Affairs people at the front line are dedicated to helping veterans. That is my view. That's not a view shared by all veterans. Our worry is that some of those people are going to disappear if there are budget cuts. According to this morning's paper, those cuts are not going to appear for some months. So perhaps there is some hope that in the coming months, ladies and gentlemen such as you will be able to wield sufficient influence behind the drapes or on the airplane to ensure that the cuts to these people who deal on a daily basis with the veterans do not occur. If they're not there, the veterans aren't going to get served.

Am I confusing you or causing you more of a problem?

[Wladyslaw Lizon, Conservative, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

I asked the question simply to find out whether an improvement is needed on the front line in those people at the department who look after case work. Are they there to help veterans or is there some kind of deliberate action on their part to delay or deny service?

[Robert O'Brien]

I did not mean to imply that at all. If they're there, they will work. If they're not there, they can't.

[Wladyslaw Lizon, Conservative, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

I understand, Mr. O'Brien, and all of the witnesses. We had the minister appear before the committee twice, and we had the department officials. The minister, the deputy minister, and the department officials were very clear that there would be no cuts to services to Canadian veterans. That doesn't mean the budget will not cut some services that will not be needed. As you very well know, we are losing quite a large number of veterans every day—especially Second World War veterans. Therefore, this will reflect on the budget as well. But the minister and the department officials were very clear that there would be no cuts to services to our veterans.

[Gord Jenkins]

I have read all of your backgrounds and I know a bit about yours.

I'll be quite specific. The Polish in World War II—I have 17 books—were made a lot of promises too. We will wait until we see that there are no cuts in the budget.

[Robert O'Brien]

The minister has assured us several times that the money destined for programs will not be cut. But he was in no position, when he gave those assurances, to assure us there would not be cuts to the department. If the cuts to the department remove front-line workers, veterans will suffer. If you're right and there are not going to be any cuts to the department, that's lovely. We will cheer.