Veterans Affairs Committee on April 3rd, 2012

[Mathieu Ravignat, NDP, Pontiac, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My question is for Staff Sergeant Casault. Afterwards, I will discuss victims of post-traumatic stress disorder.

During your testimony, you mentioned that, over the past few weeks, you have talked to several members who use Canadian Forces clinics. If my understanding is correct, some RCMP veterans use Canadian Forces clinics. In my riding, veterans are saying that even Canadian Forces clinics are inaccessible, and that they are difficult to find. Finding a clinic and someone who can treat them is a challenge.

Could you tell us more about the challenges veterans face in using those Canadian Forces clinics?

[S/Sgt Michael Casault]

I just have a point to clarify. It's serving members I spoke to, not with the veterans.

Some of the concerns they have raised are the location. They have to travel hours to get to these clinics. Sometimes it takes four or five hours within the clinic setting, so they have to travel the night before, and now it has become a cost issue.

I know that one member I spoke with had to travel for four and a half hours to a clinic, so he had to go the night before. We can appreciate their concerns as well. They take their spouse to this clinic to talk with a psychologist, so they take their private vehicle. It's a four and a half hour drive at 45¢, or whatever the mileage rate is. It starts to add up—a hotel room, per diems, etc.—so there are suggestions that they deal with the local centre now because of cost. That's a concern, because of location. I wouldn't say this is a large centre, but there are psychologists. There are about six psychologists within the community, but not trained in OSISS. The nearest OSISS is in the neighbouring province, so there is that consideration.

Some of the concerns are that you're talking within the military, and some of the concerns that are discussed there are totally different. They don't get what IEDs or roadside bombs are, or that type of thing, so it's hard.

[Mathieu Ravignat, NDP, Pontiac, QC]

Do you think people who specialize in treating RCMP members should be available? In other words, the specialization of those who treat Canadian Forces veterans or current members is not necessarily well-suited to RCMP members, as their needs are considerably different.

[S/Sgt Michael Casault]

Well, I think PTSD is PTSD.

On the needs of the RCMP and the training of the psychologists—I don't know if I'm getting your question right here—they may be few and far between in the sense that we have the 15 or 19 psychologists within the RCMP, but they're not clinical psychologists who our members can go and talk to.

To have somebody on the outside, there are identified psychologists within certain regions who can talk to the RCMP, but just to take that one step further, I'll give you an example with regard to a shooting, and I apologize if I'm rambling.

This member was told, “Here's a psychologist who is recognized by the RCMP.” That psychologist's name was also given to the family of the victim who was shot. Because of the scenario, the small community...it's hard to identify somebody different. A psychologist is a psychologist; they have professional ethics, and they'll separate it, but when I'm telling you my version of it and somebody else is telling their version, in a small community that's also a point of....

I don't know if that helps.

[The Chair, Conservative, Greg Kerr]

Thank you very much.

We are well over the time.

Now we have Mr. Storseth for four minutes, please.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

Thank you very much.

Part of it comes to the view from above on these things. As you were talking about, I live in a small community. Another aspect of that is running into the family at the actual clinic.

In some cases, I believe there needs to be more priority put on this as a very real issue that needs very real dollars put toward helping address some of these situations.

One of the things that I was buoyed with was the fact that RCMP officers, serving members, will have access to the OSI clinics that were put around the country as part of our government's plan with Veterans Affairs Canada. In a rural riding like St. Paul it is a two- to three-hour drive to go to Edmonton to do it rather than an hour to Cold Lake, and a lot of the time this can be a very draining process, particularly when you're dealing with PTSD.

One of the things I sometimes see lacking, and I'd like to know if the attitude has started to change with the RCMP.... A lot of these guys are Type A personalities. If they are out there serving in rural Alberta somewhere and they have a minor injury, they're going to continue on with their job. They're not going to stop and fill out all the pertinent paperwork right away. They're going to continue on with their job.

Has there been more awareness made about the proper processes—the proper paperwork that needs to be done, and all these things—so that down the road, if that ankle injury or shoulder injury continues to be a problem, they are going to be able to have the right reimbursements or remuneration for it?

[Supt Lynn Lemieux]

It goes in line with what Staff Sergeant Casault mentioned. I think we need to communicate more about what is out there and the process for accessing these pensions and these awards, including the documentation and the process for doing so.

We've done that on our internal Infoweb system. We need to continue doing that, and that is where our SRR colleagues really do help us in sending that information. Our health offices also share that information, and we have return-to-work facilitators. Once you have been injured or have an injury and return to work, but you're not yet quite fully operational, we have gradual return to work. These return-to-work facilitators are also knowledgeable in these things and are of assistance in directing them to where they can apply and in telling them what is required.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

Particularly with PTSD, this is something—

Go ahead.

[A/Commr Daniel Dubeau]

Has the attitude changed? Yes, it has, but it takes a long time to do attitude, because there are people with more service. I don't want to mention my colleagues, but there are those like me who have more service. They came up through a different time.

However, we are changing that. Our training facilities have completely changed. Our cadets are being told, and it's more open. We've talked about PTSD. We're more open about that. You're right in saying that there are Type A personalities, and we are trying to change that attitude. We have to change that attitude to make people understand this is important for our organization and for themselves. We have to get there. We continue to emphasize that message, and we will continue to do so.

[S/Sgt Abraham Townsend]

As a positive, once we were included under part II of the Canada Labour Code, there was that obligation on supervisors to report near misses and actual injury and dangerous events, so record-keeping has improved over the last number of years.

Back when I was a young constable, you'd take the lumps and you'd move on, but now there is a positive obligation by legislation: yes, okay, you take the lumps, but it's reported. In many cases you still move on, but they now create that legacy that was missing in the past.

This becomes problematic when you're dealing with operational stress injuries. If I break my arm, you can see the cast; if I have an operational stress injury, you don't necessarily see the injury, and as the recipient of the injury, I don't necessarily see it. Even if I do, because of the Type A personality, I have to deal with the stigma. Do I self-identify and deal with the stigma around that? It's a problem, and it's a huge problem with no easy solution.

When it comes to OSI, I've often said if I had an OSI injury, I'd ask them to put a cast on my arm so that people wouldn't look at me and wonder why I was off work. I would be off work because I had a cast, when really I had something else wrong with me.

[Brian Storseth, Conservative, Westlock—St. Paul, AB]

That's my last point. I think we need to put more awareness and more empowerment in the hands of the spouses and the family members who can see this from a third party perspective. We need to make sure that the spouses also know the routes they can take, through Veterans Affairs or whatever, to help members to self-identify. They can be empowered through knowledge and be able to help our serving members.

[The Chair, Conservative, Greg Kerr]

Thank you, Mr. Storseth.

We'll go to Mr. Harris for a question or two.

[Dan Harris, NDP, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Thank you, and thank you to all of you for being here.

In my family there have been several generations of service. One of my grandfathers was in the Musical Ride many years ago, and of course I'm thankful for their service and for yours.

I'm going to be rather quick and perhaps brutal in cutting you off. I apologize for having to do that to get my questions in.

Superintendent, earlier you mentioned that you had engaged in a study last year and that changes and new things have been brought forward. After a study, obviously there would have been a report. Would it be possible for you to provide the report to the committee and our analyst for us to use in completing our report? That could be very useful. Thank you.

Staff Sergeant Townsend, you were speaking about the need to have that embedded person from VAC, and you mentioned that it used to be full time and is now part time. Is that a wilful change that happened or just something that slid, or are we not sure?

[S/Sgt Abraham Townsend]

I'm not sure why or how it happened. I know that we went from having a full-time person embedded within the VAC offices in Charlottetown to having somebody—and I can argue with my colleagues in the RCMP over whether it's full-time or part-time—who is not embedded within the VAC offices in Charlottetown where the action happens.

[Dan Harris, NDP, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Do you know when that change happened?

[S/Sgt Abraham Townsend]

It was approximately a year and a half ago, but that's an estimate.

[Dan Harris, NDP, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Okay. I'm sure it will be taken under advisement that you want that person's responsibilities to be that, regardless—

[S/Sgt Abraham Townsend]

I and my national executive partner and the CHRO have had some positive dialogue.

[Dan Harris, NDP, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Great.

It has been mentioned that cultural changes have happened, but very early in your testimony, Mr. Casault, you were speaking about the under-reporting that happens, possibly due to the potential for career sidetracking. You mentioned there is a hesitancy to come forward with OSI injuries.

Is there a plan in place to try to remove that stigma, or is that something you're working on with other branches to put in place?

[S/Sgt Michael Casault]

The quick answer is that the plan is not to report, and then it's not an issue, but that's not the acceptable plan, right?

I think the awareness of the members about the support.... If a member who wants to get promoted is off for six months in an admin role while he's recovering, and a supervisor looks at this person and compares him to other people, the supervisor may say that this person has an injury. The supervisor might not come out and say it, but might think this guy has something wrong with him and ask why he would pick him. That spreads throughout the organization quite quickly, so a person with OSI might go underground and self-medicate and what have you.

I touched on this a little. I think it has to do with the staffing levels and members having the ability to take a breath and talk with a certain.... Our one-person watches are out there working by themselves and have nobody to talk to. There should be a second person, and that goes to the gentleman who mentioned educating the wife. We spend more time with our partner on the street, if we have a partner on the street, than we do with our spouses, so we have to educate within.

[Dan Harris, NDP, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Could perhaps—

[The Chair, Conservative, Greg Kerr]

We're at the end of your time, so I'm going to ask Commissioner Dubeau to speak.

[A/Commr Daniel Dubeau]

Is there a plan? Yes. We continue stressing awareness.

Mike is indicating that members feel they should not report. We continue to stress from the management side that we have to do something. It's okay to report. We ask our members to tell us if they have something, so we know. Abe talked about the Canada Labour Code; if something has happened, there has to be a report.

We continually stress to our managers that they're part of the solution. They have to manage. They have to watch what's happening to their employees and in their detachments so that we're aware of what's happening with our membership.

[The Chair, Conservative, Greg Kerr]

Thank you very much.

Next is Mr. Lizon, for four minutes.

[Wladyslaw Lizon, Conservative, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I would like to join my colleagues and thank you all for your presence here this afternoon and for your great service.

Let's continue on with operational stress injury in general. Probably also associated with it, associated with stress in the workplace and not necessarily limited only to the RCMP, is perhaps substance abuse.

As a committee we travelled to several places in Canada, and we spoke with veterans of the Canadian armed forces. Most of them told us that if they had a problem, they would fear reporting it, because, as they bluntly put it, this would mean they were done. I suppose there's a similar fear at the RCMP.

Also you, or anybody in charge who's dealing with the issue, has to find a balanced solution that on the one hand helps the person, and that on the other hand does not endanger anybody if the decision you made, or someone made, is wrong.

It's an open question. Maybe you could elaborate a little bit on this.