Evidence of meeting #59 for Veterans Affairs in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was studies.
A recording is available from Parliament.
9:15 a.m.
Conservative
Ben Lobb Conservative Huron—Bruce, ON
So if the information was good or bad or inconclusive, it would be found inside this report.
9:15 a.m.
Chairman of the Committee, Scientific Advisory Committee on Veterans’ Health
We had criteria, scientific criteria. But independent from the point of view—I think your question is—of any external pressure.
9:15 a.m.
Chairman of the Committee, Scientific Advisory Committee on Veterans’ Health
The answer to that is absolutely not, and I underline absolutely.
9:15 a.m.
Conservative
Ben Lobb Conservative Huron—Bruce, ON
In the commentary that you provided, you said there is no monitoring device that is available for the military to either put on the collar of their uniforms or whatever. Is there anything that any of the manufacturers are currently working on to put it in? Is it a priority? Is there anything in R and D right now for that?
9:15 a.m.
Chairman of the Committee, Scientific Advisory Committee on Veterans’ Health
I've asked myself that question, and because you're asking it, it makes it a good question.
9:15 a.m.
Chairman of the Committee, Scientific Advisory Committee on Veterans’ Health
I'm not aware of anything, but it certainly is something that ought to be researched because it would be completely different if we had a way of measuring exposure, not just to depleted uranium, but to arsenic, nickel, cadmium, or anything else that soldiers might be exposed to, which you don't necessarily find in the day-to-day environment. The only thing that they have as badges are for external radiation, in case of a nuclear situation. This is external radiation in large doses, gamma radiation, which does not apply to depleted uranium, but it would have been simpler.
This is the limiting factor in very many studies in any country.
9:15 a.m.
Conservative
Ben Lobb Conservative Huron—Bruce, ON
Maybe this summer Mr. Stoffer and I will come up with some sort of a mechanism to measure this.
9:15 a.m.
Chairman of the Committee, Scientific Advisory Committee on Veterans’ Health
Okay, well, you'd get rich.
9:15 a.m.
Conservative
Ben Lobb Conservative Huron—Bruce, ON
Okay. I have one other question for you.
Could you tell this committee how the Canadian military handles depleted uranium weapons? Does the approach differ from that of the U.S. or any other country, and has it changed over the last 20 years, the way it handles the weapons?
9:15 a.m.
Chairman of the Committee, Scientific Advisory Committee on Veterans’ Health
Maybe I was speaking a bit too fast, or maybe it was in French, but the Canadian Forces do not have depleted uranium weapons. They had some for a short time on board ships from 1989, perhaps 1990, until 1998. I could slip by one year on either side of that, but that's the only time they had depleted uranium.
9:15 a.m.
Conservative
9:15 a.m.
Chairman of the Committee, Scientific Advisory Committee on Veterans’ Health
It was never fired. Canada never fired a depleted uranium round in battle.
9:15 a.m.
Conservative
Ben Lobb Conservative Huron—Bruce, ON
Okay. Would it be possible to determine if they've ever handled them in any NATO-led missions?
9:20 a.m.
Chairman of the Committee, Scientific Advisory Committee on Veterans’ Health
Oh, they've handled them, for sure. For sure they've handled them in the sense that these are cartridges, if you wish. They're rounds and they're stored, and they were there on the ships.
9:20 a.m.
Conservative
Ben Lobb Conservative Huron—Bruce, ON
Just so everybody understands, you're not going to have any effects from it by touching it with your bare hand or anything like that.
9:20 a.m.
Chairman of the Committee, Scientific Advisory Committee on Veterans’ Health
No, well, that's just it.
9:20 a.m.
Conservative
9:20 a.m.
Chairman of the Committee, Scientific Advisory Committee on Veterans’ Health
Okay, thanks for setting me straight.
But the external exposure—and everyone agrees with that—is very little because the radiation that is dangerous is called alpha radiation. That's associated with depleted uranium. That radiation is called alpha particles. They do not cross the skin barrier. They can't even get through a sheet of paper.
9:20 a.m.
Conservative
Ben Lobb Conservative Huron—Bruce, ON
This is my last question, if I have time.
Because of the potential exposure of some of their military, what is the U.S. doing now to try to monitor, to measure? What are they doing to try to set the bar higher for what they can measure to protect their military?
9:20 a.m.
Chairman of the Committee, Scientific Advisory Committee on Veterans’ Health
I don't know, but I think that for any reasonable forces—in the absence of the device that you and Mr. Stoffer will be working on and get rich with—the only improvement at this time would be, in a given situation if there is a reasonable chance of exposure, let's say to depleted uranium or something else, to get those measurements, urinalysis in this case, as soon as possible because the longer you wait, the less reliable your result is. That is the one thing.
From a technological point of view, I don't know where the Americans are. They're probably working on it, though.
9:20 a.m.
NDP
The Vice-Chair NDP Peter Stoffer
Thank you very much.
Now we'll go to Mr. Casey for five minutes, please.
9:20 a.m.
Liberal
Sean Casey Liberal Charlottetown, PE
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Welcome back, Dr. Morisset.
In response to a question from Mr. Chicoine, you indicated that this report is for veterans. I would ask you to be crystal clear on what the message is to veterans and to people who adjudicate their claims. Does this report stand for the proposition that any and all claims by any veteran that they have suffered an injury or a disability or have a claim for a pension on the basis of exposure to depleted uranium must be rejected?
9:20 a.m.
Chairman of the Committee, Scientific Advisory Committee on Veterans’ Health
I know what your question is, but I'll preface my answer with something else.
There are two aspects here. When we say it's for the veterans, it's not necessarily for claiming; it's for their health. If a veteran is sick and he feels that it is attributable to depleted uranium, it's important that he get the right treatment, because, on the strength of our investigation, what we're seeing is that it's unlikely that what he has can be attributable to depleted uranium, scientifically speaking. We're not saying that it's impossible. Our words were carefully chosen. It's improbable. We did not say that it's totally unlikely—none of these words—but it's unlikely, improbable.
There may be some soldier somewhere who has been exposed in a way that we're not aware of, a special operations person, for example, who was in fact with the Americans in one of these.... I don't know this. Our committee can't determine this. Maybe there is a veteran somewhere who has been exposed to depleted uranium, but it would have to be at a very high level.
I have to remind you that when we looked at the ones who had been the most highly exposed that we know of, these blue on blue—and I'm sorry about my military side coming out here—the friendly fire situation, they don't have a problem.
As for the adjudication, it's not a message for the adjudicators. They will certainly look at this to freshen up on their scientific facts, but it was not destined for the adjudicators.