Evidence of meeting #62 for Veterans Affairs in the 41st Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was told.
A recording is available from Parliament.
As an Individual
Quickly, it is very simple.
Without exactly knowing all the details because I know it is a matter of national security, I am asking that we at least get adequate care and that people stop the blanket denials. The constant denials cause veterans a lot of distress. I am just asking them to take care of us.
Liberal
Conservative
Bob Zimmer Conservative Prince George—Peace River, BC
Thank you, Chair.
Thank you for coming, and thank you for your service to Canada. As Mr. Hayes stated earlier, we really care about our veterans, we care about you, we care that you get well. We really do want you to get well.
My questions are based on what Mr. Lizon had started to ask. We didn't get through all the questions—about which ones you completely agree with or ones you don't agree with—so I want to continue with that. It's in the document you have in front of you. Correct me if I'm wrong: you've agreed with number one of the report, in the conclusion, is that correct?
As an Individual
Yes, I agree with the first conclusion, which reads:
1. Depleted uranium is potentially harmful to human health by virtue of its chemical and radiological effects.
As an Individual
I have already replied favourably to the second conclusion.
I do not agree with the third conclusion, which reads:
3. It is unlikely that Canadian soldiers have been exposed to levels of depleted uranium which could be harmful to their health.
The fourth conclusion says this:
4. There is no consistent evidence from the military cohort studies of adverse health effects that could be attributed to depleted uranium.
That is just denial. I do not understand how American, Canadian and British soldiers can be in the field and we are protected from the adverse effects because we wear a Canadian uniform. I do not believe that.
Please understand that Italy has recognized the problem and is taking care of its veterans who are contaminated with uranium. Why do the Italians have the right to be ill and we do not have that right, even though we were working in exactly the same place? Was something special going to happen so that we would not get contaminated just because we are Canadian? No, that is absurd. With everything that is going on in the world, that's absurd.
As an Individual
Point 5 talks about “larger civilian studies”. This is completely contradicted by the United Nations report that I have provided as supporting documentation. What I find troubling about point 5 is that Dr. Morisset thinks that he holds the truth in his hands. But currently, medicine knows very little about uranium contamination. So point 5 is highly doubtful. Personally, I find it removes a lot of credibility from the document.
Point 6 says that:
6. Our finding that exposure to uranium is not associated with a large or frequent health effect is in agreement with the conclusions of other expert bodies.
So it is not frequent. As I said earlier, I do not know why I react to uranium poisoning more than others do. I just take the words “not frequent” to mean that it exists all the same. Can you take care of people who have health problems associated with uranium poisoning? “Not frequent” does not mean that it does not exist.
Point 7 says this:
7. There are many veterans suffering from persistent symptoms following deployment or military conflict which, although not linked to specific exposures such as depleted uranium, can cause considerable suffering and can be effectively treated.
If that is the case, why do you not provide us with the treatment? We are ready to be treated. You say that the symptoms are not associated with uranium poisoning. But what I want is to feel good when I get up in the morning. What I want is some quality of life. So if ever that means anything to you…
Conservative
Bob Zimmer Conservative Prince George—Peace River, BC
It follows what you're talking about in question number seven, I guess, and why the study, why we want to come to some conclusion. At the end of the day, we know veterans are still suffering ill health effects. That's the bottom line. We know that.
In your case, relating to what Ms. Mathyssen had suggested, too, there were some other things that you had been exposed to. You had referred to a bite and it caused a severe reaction. At the end of the day we want to find out if it is something else. I'd ask you this. If you or a doctor could come to the conclusion that it is something else that's causing the negative health effects, would you be open to treatment based on what that decision would be? What I'm saying is, are you open to other causes of your ill health effects?
As an Individual
I have a number of health problems and I am well aware of them. If you have some treatment for me that will get me a better quality of life, tell me where to sign up. I am in. I want to get better. I am not the kind of person who whines for whining’s sake. I am here to get results. But watch out, if things happen like they did with Minister Blaney during the hunger strike, when the first offer was made to me and it just involved treatment for me alone, the answer will be no. Take care of us all. Because each time I lose a brother-in-arms to suicide because he is not receiving care appropriate to his condition, a part of me dies too.
Can you look after us? Why does the only veterans hospital in Canada take care of psychological conditions only? Are physical conditions not important? They made me leave Ste. Anne's Hospital because there was too much physically wrong with me. They said I was too ill to stay in that hospital. But it is the only veterans hospital in Canada. I asked where I could go for treatment. They said they didn’t know, that it was not their problem and that I had to leave. That is not what I call care. I would like some help to improve my overall state of health.
Specialists have told me that, with uranium poisoning, as with mercury poisoning, there is no recognized treatment at the moment. I am aware of that, but can you help with the chronic fatigue, the chronic pain, the fibromyalgia, the ulcers and all the other problems? Can the Department acknowledge my kidney problems? Even though I am told that it is not possible to establish a link between my service and my kidney problems—because they are linked to uranium poisoning—can you take care of my overall state of health?
As soon as I get some care and am being looked after, what will I have to complain about? People will not keep telling me that they are sorry. It is a bit of a disgrace, but that is exactly what officials at Veterans Affairs Canada told me: “Listen, you are BS in uniform, go home; you are not going to get a bigger social assistance cheque”. I don’t want cheques, I want treatment.
Up to now, the department has offered me a lot of prescriptions for anti-depressants, then a psychiatrist, then another psychiatrist. But that does nothing for my physical condition. By the way, they have done studies in Great Britain and none of them proves any beneficial effects from taking anti-depressants for more than six months.
Why does Veterans Affairs Canada keep on giving us anti-depressants when no study proves that they do us any good? Do you understand? Anti-depressants and post-traumatic stress disorder aside, can you take care of our other health problems?
So to answer your question, yes, please, give us some care. I will be happy to go and get it.
Conservative
NDP
The Vice-Chair NDP Peter Stoffer
You have another minute. Go ahead, buddy.
Oh, he's done? Sorry. You are way past time.
I wanted to advise the committee that I tried to introduce the supplementary estimates. Unfortunately, a Conservative member moved to orders of the day so supplementary estimates could not have been done yesterday or today.
We have 30-minute bells so we're done. We have about 26 minutes before we have to vote, so I need to seek unanimous consent to continue with committee business.
Conservative
NDP
The Vice-Chair NDP Peter Stoffer
Very good.
Ms. Papillon, you have four minutes, and then Ms. Adams.
NDP
Annick Papillon NDP Québec, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Often the soldier is not the only one affected. It also affects the people around him, the people he associates with.
How is your family dealing with this situation, with no care for 10 years, with little or no response from Veterans Affairs Canada? How has this affected you all?
As an Individual
First, my family did not understand. Over and above what I went through for my country, my family judged me and rejected me. I was engaged to a wonderful woman for nine years. She even shared my passion for serving my country. She went to Afghanistan with the reserve. She came back with full-blown PTSD, post-traumatic stress disorder. Though I was very familiar with it and though I supported her as best I could, we went to the base hospital at Longue-Pointe a number of times and she did not get adequate care. I had to leave her in emergency because she was suicidal. She tried to commit suicide several times because she was not getting adequate care. At the civilian hospital, they left her unattended.
One morning, when I went to visit her, I found her on the floor in the middle of the emergency room area. She had empty pill containers in her hands. I took her in my arms and said “Come with me, sweetheart, I am going to take you home and keep looking after you.” I told her that even though I was in no longer in any condition to do so. She lifted her hands and I saw that she had tried to take her own life. My poor darling had to be resuscitated. When I came back to see her after she had been revived, I asked her: “Why, sweetie?” She said: “Because I am fighting this all alone”.
I managed to get her a bed in the hospital in Sainte-Anne-de-Bellevue. They stuffed her full of pills. Instead of helping her illness, they drugged it up. At the end, we had to break up because we were no longer able to take care of each other. We only had each other in the world. We were killing each other. We were too demanding with each other and we did not understand it ourselves. When we asked for help, we were told to take some pills and stop bothering people. This is just a big despair factory that almost cost myself and my fiancée our lives. That is the help we got.
NDP
Annick Papillon NDP Québec, QC
To sum up, you were in good health, you were an athlete and you joined the army. There is probably a mix of all sorts of things. You left the army specifically because you were no longer in good health. You have sent applications to Veterans Affairs Canada. From what I gather, you felt misunderstood and it took weeks and months before you got some help, very little help.
Then, given all those applications, you no longer believed in the help provided. I also know, but you can confirm it, that the veterans health advisory committee was created because Minister Blaney made a promise to you following your hunger strike. You went on the hunger strike because you have asked to meet with the minister a number of times, but he refused. You said that you did not want to take more extreme measures.
Yet you went to those lengths because you wanted the government to promise that it would take care of veterans health. You are still asking for the same thing now. It does not matter much that there are tests, tools, diagnoses, appropriate care or that the veterans have the benefit of the doubt for their service, when it is not really clear and when it may be unlikely that…
NDP
The Vice-Chair NDP Peter Stoffer
You're over your time right now.
Monsieur Lacoste, I'll allow you a very short reply.
As an Individual
I will be quick. When I was on the hunger strike, I was ready to die. I would have been dead in less than 12 hours and the priest came to give me the extreme unction. I was ready to go. I did it because I no longer had anything to lose, since you have taken everything from me.
NDP
The Vice-Chair NDP Peter Stoffer
Thank you, Mr. Lacoste.
We conclude our questioning with Ms. Adams, the parliamentary secretary, please.
Conservative
Eve Adams Conservative Mississauga—Brampton South, ON
Mr. Lacoste, I would like to thank you for your service to Canada.
I am terribly sorry for what you have endured and what your former fiancée has endured. We are earnest when we say we are legitimately studying this to see how we might be able to offer assistance to you and to all veterans.
Turning back to the study, could you please comment on how you found the process and the methodology in that study?
As an Individual
There has been a huge lack of transparency. First, I would have liked to be informed of the progress with the file. As a member of Parliament, Annick Papillon has often asked Minister Blaney questions in the House and she received the same answers as I did when I asked him whether I could get care or not. He talked to me about redecorating his office. Thank you, Mr. Minister!
All I am asking you is to follow your own laws. Now, as young veterans, we have access to information. We have the Internet and we know your laws. When Veterans Affairs Canada does not comply with its own laws, it tears us apart. When we signed a contract with you, we were prepared to give our lives for our country and we told ourselves that we had nothing to worry about. If we got sick, we would be taken care of. That is not what is happening.
Conservative
Eve Adams Conservative Mississauga—Brampton South, ON
What do you think of the credentials of the experts who were involved in the study, those who helped draft this report?
