Veterans Affairs Committee on March 7th, 2013

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Obviously you've done a lot of reading and research on cause and effect with depleted uranium and on some of the side effects that come with this exposure. From 1995-96 through 1999, from what I understand from what you said today, you didn't really experience anything.

I was pretty sure from what Dr. Morisset said that you would experience something right after you were exposed, or within a pretty close timeframe you would have some side effects.

Did you have side effects immediately after your exposure?

[Pascal Lacoste]

Honestly, I am an excessive person. I focused on my mission and I trained. I don't strictly remember if I felt any major effects. Maybe I was tired, but that didn't prevent me from doing my duty and carrying on.

No, I was not aware of it. As I said earlier, I am not an expert. So I can't explain how or why. But I can tell you that when I finished school, I joined the army in good shape. However, while I was still in the army, I was diagnosed with uranium poisoning. That's the only thing I can say. As for the details, I would really like answers. It would be easier, and I would be even more credible before the committee.

[Ben Lobb, Conservative, Huron—Bruce, ON]

Did any of your colleagues you served with in Bosnia put forward submissions to Dr. Morisset about being examined in the study?

[Pascal Lacoste]

I don't know. I can't answer for them. However, given that it isn't a known illness, there aren't a lot of people who have been tested. Even me, and I was tested by the Canadian Forces; I was never informed of that. There is even a lack of information about this problem. I am telling you that I am working very hard to check it. I strongly encourage my brothers and sisters in arms to be screened for uranium poisoning. It will certainly take a few months.

You can count on me. I'm getting ready and I will be able to respond to that question. I have sort of made it my mission for the coming months.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Peter Stoffer]

I'm sorry, Mr. Lobb; your time is up.

We now go on to your colleague Mr. Lizon for five minutes.

[Wladyslaw Lizon, Conservative, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Lacoste, for coming here this morning.

I think you were already asked the question and stated that you do not agree with the report.

Would that be correct?

[Pascal Lacoste]

I think the report is incomplete because at no point does it talk about the effects on the reproductive system. However, it's the first to be affect. The report does not talk about the lymphatic system, either. It seems to me that the report mainly states what uranium does not do. It does not really cover what it does do.

[Wladyslaw Lizon, Conservative, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

Do you agree with any of the seven conclusions in the report?

[Pascal Lacoste]

I only accept the one that says it is unlikely. That doesn't mean it is improbable.

I understand very well that, in 2013, the medical field doesn't know a lot about uranium poisoning. I would have liked to have seen this in the report, but it wasn't in there. There is still a lot of work to be done on this. The fact that it is unlikely gives me a lot of hope, especially since Dr. Morisset said in his testimony that he was going to work on a tool to better detect these things. In that respect, I'm asking myself this: if it isn't dangerous, why are we investing money in developing a detector?

[Wladyslaw Lizon, Conservative, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

There are seven conclusions, and you said you would agree with one.

I'll read what conclusion number one states: Depleted uranium...is potentially harmful to human health by virtue of its chemical and radiological effects.

I suppose you would agree with that, wouldn't you?

[Pascal Lacoste]

Absolutely.

[Wladyslaw Lizon, Conservative, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

Would you also agree with any of the other six conclusions? If yes, can you tell the committee which ones?

[Pascal Lacoste]

I'll take the time to find them so I can refresh my memory.

If you could give me the page number, that would really help me.

[An hon. member]

It's on page 33.

[Pascal Lacoste]

It's on page 33.

[Wladyslaw Lizon, Conservative, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

It's page 27. I don't know whether or not the French version has the same page numbers.

[Pascal Lacoste]

I was told that it's on page 33 of the French version.

[Wladyslaw Lizon, Conservative, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

Okay. It's point 3.

[Pascal Lacoste]

Okay. It says:

1. Depleted uranium (DU) is potentially harmful to human health by virtue of its chemical and radiological effects.

It states that radioactivity has two kinds of effects. I agree with that.

2. Within a military setting, the highest risk of exposure to depleted uranium is in those who were: in, on or near vehicles hit with friendly fire;…

That was my experience.

…entering or near these burning vehicles; near fires involving DU munitions; salvaging damaged vehicles; or involved in clean up operations of contaminated sites.

I agree with point 2. As for point 3, it reads:

3. It is unlikely that Canadian soldiers have been exposed to levels of depleted uranium which could be harmful to their health.

It is unlikely, but that does not mean it isn't possible. How can you explain that there is uranium in my body? Where was I contaminated? As for the word "unlikely", I have mixed feelings about it and I really hope the Minister of Veterans Affairs, Mr. Blaney, will be inclined to favour our side.

Point 5 reads:

5. There is no strong evidence of adverse health effects reported in larger civilian studies with longer follow-up periods of populations with increased exposure to uranium (e.g. uranium production and fabrication workers).

Point 5 is incomplete. All the specialists I consulted told me that they could not weigh in completely on that matter. Even your doctor, Dr. Morisset, said that a lot of studies were contradictory. As for me, I would not have worded point 5 that way.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Peter Stoffer]

Thank you very much, Mr. Lacoste.

We'll now go to the second round, but before we do, the chair has to leave to introduce the two reports on the estimates, so we're going to ask Mr. Casey, the second vice-chair, to sit in the chair. I'll probably be about seven minutes and then I'll come right back.

Mr. Casey, would you like to assume the chair?

We're moving on to Ms. Mathyssen for four minutes when Mr. Casey gets in the chair.

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

I'm mindful of the fact that the committee has in the past overturned their own chair, so let me assure you that occupying the chair certainly won't go to my head.

Ms. Mathyssen, go ahead, please.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'll try not to be too rebellious. I'll keep that in mind.

Monsieur Lacoste, welcome to our committee and thank you for agreeing to share this time with us and to bring us your story.

I want to hear some more of that story. You recounted your military service, and you mentioned that during that service you contracted what you believe was dengue fever. What are the long-term effects of dengue fever? I'm also wondering if you were vaccinated when you went into the field. Do you know whether or not you were exposed to pesticides or chemicals? Is it possible that beyond the depleted uranium you were victim to a cocktail of exposures?

[Pascal Lacoste]

Yes, absolutely.

Some biologists conducted an investigation on the island of East Timor. We found out that East Timor was used for the storage of chemical agents for the American army during the Vietnam war.

I would like to mention something else. My level of toxicity is so high that I just have to go into a shopping centre and the chemical smell inside completely knocks me out.

Dr. June Irwin confirmed that I am contaminated with 14 heavy metals and with BPDE. BPDE is the little brother of the PCBs. It is what the army uses to flameproof tents and other flammable things. It is a chemical compound that retards flames on flammable material. It is also used to poison rats and get rid of mould. Dr. Irwin was doing a study on the effects of the product on veterans. All the veterans she tested have it in their bodies to different degrees.

As to the side effects of dengue fever and Lyme disease, I admit that I have not been told about them. The only treatment I received, since the army said that I did not have anything, was a recommendation that I should drink water and try to rest.

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you.

As I'm sure you know, we've had some experts come and give testimony. Among them was Dr. Nicholas Priest, who indicated that there were a great many things we don't know in terms of the exposure that soldiers experienced. Also, he indicated that in some cases, it was kept secret for military purposes or purposes of security. He also said that we should be working very hard to find out what is causing the problems that Canadian Forces or military personnel are suffering from once they leave the service.

Would you like Veterans Affairs, would you like the Canadian military, to do more research? Do you think they need to do a better job of finding out exactly what is impacting your life?

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Mr. Lacoste, can I ask you for a quick answer, please?