Evidence of meeting #63 for Veterans Affairs in the 41st Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was research.
A recording is available from Parliament.
NDP
Annick Papillon NDP Québec, QC
It seems that, nonetheless, there are differences. Actually, Ms. Richard, who testified before this committee just before you, was explaining to us that there are tests, which received perhaps greater recognition in the United States, that could detect certain illnesses or certain causes, such as in the case of depleted uranium.
Could you tell me about some of the tests used in the United States that Canada could use as a model? That would be worthwhile indeed.
Research Leader, Battelle Memorial Institute, As an Individual
At this point, I'm a health physicist, so I'm dealing primarily with the physics part of this, how DU is internalized, how it's metabolized, and the radiation health effects for that.
What I think Madame Richard was referring to was the U.S. effort very early on to measure the amount of depleted uranium in urine from our combat veterans. At this point in time, as Madame Richard said, it is really too late to conduct those measurements to determine whether or not there are increased levels of DU in the urine. Increased levels of DU in the urine are indicative of increased levels of DU—
NDP
Annick Papillon NDP Québec, QC
Perhaps we could now conduct analyses that would allow us not to end up slow on the uptake again, like in situations such as those that occurred more than a decade ago. Perhaps we could immediately set up our own procedures, tests and scientists that would be able to help our soldiers of today right now, those who will be our veterans of tomorrow. I don't know if that could be a solution.
We could implement solutions like that one, in order to go beyond the tabled report, which concluded that it was very unlikely that there were any cases of depleted uranium contamination. I don't want to focus exclusively on those recommendations. I want solutions. I want tests to be implemented. Perhaps the procedures need to be changed or re-engineered in order to be able to make a diagnosis more quickly. At the very least, appropriate care must be offered to our soldiers and veterans.
Research Leader, Battelle Memorial Institute, As an Individual
I will discuss what I know about the U.S. system for pre-deployment and post-deployment screening. This was basically developed after the Gulf War to try to mend some of the problems that we had with our returning veterans from the Gulf War. The U.S. system starts with a pre-deployment screening questionnaire where people are provided with an opportunity to assess their health and to provide an indication of the types of concerns that they have prior to their deployment. There are preventative medicine units and organizations that are deployed with our soldiers that are actively monitoring the environment to determine whether there are toxins in the environment.
I think the strongest part of the U.S. program is when the veterans return. There's a post-deployment questionnaire. There's medical monitoring that's established based upon the veteran's assessment of the exposure that the veteran had. For instance, if the veteran returning from the most recent Iraq war checked the depleted uranium exposure box, he would be provided access to a physician trained on depleted uranium exposures who would be able to answer whatever questions the veteran had.
Prior to executing that program, we established first a U.S. army-wide DU training program. Madame Richard is correct. The soldiers that were sent over in the first Gulf War were not informed about the fact that DU rounds were being used. In the U.S., we started a training program that basically required all soldiers to watch a training film.
NDP
The Vice-Chair NDP Peter Stoffer
Thank you very much.
We need to move on. Maybe you can continue that discussion with the next member.
Mr. Zimmer, please, for four minutes.
Conservative
Bob Zimmer Conservative Prince George—Peace River, BC
Thank you, Doctor, for coming today. Thank you for your service to our neighbour to the south, but also to our veterans today through your testimony. I thank all the veterans in the room for their service to Canada.
You mentioned that U.S. members have DU fragments in their bodies. Your research is focused on this, on the health effects from DU. Have there been any negative health effects attributed to those fragments?
Research Leader, Battelle Memorial Institute, As an Individual
Other than the injuries that were caused by the fragments themselves, there have been no attributed adverse health effects due to the fact that they're DU. These soldiers were wounded and these soldiers do have health effects, but it's not due to the depleted uranium.
Conservative
Bob Zimmer Conservative Prince George—Peace River, BC
Obviously, they came back after the time they served. Until today, in 2013, have there been any long-term effects of DU exposure?
Research Leader, Battelle Memorial Institute, As an Individual
None that I'm aware of, no.
Conservative
Bob Zimmer Conservative Prince George—Peace River, BC
Okay.
Have there been any effects on veterans' children as a result of DU exposure?
Research Leader, Battelle Memorial Institute, As an Individual
No, there have not. Immediately after the Gulf War, as a veterans' concern was raised, a study was initiated. They studied that relationship and found no correlation.
Conservative
Bob Zimmer Conservative Prince George—Peace River, BC
Okay.
I assume that there's a fairly small number of scientists dealing with this internationally. Is that correct?
Research Leader, Battelle Memorial Institute, As an Individual
Small is a relative term. To me, it's kind of large, but from your perspective, it's probably small.
Conservative
Bob Zimmer Conservative Prince George—Peace River, BC
Maybe you could enlighten us a little about that.
What countries are studying DU? Do you corroborate your research and evidence? Do you get together and share data?
Research Leader, Battelle Memorial Institute, As an Individual
The last depleted uranium symposium that occurred was sponsored by the Armed Forces Radiobiology Research Institute. That was three or four years ago. It took place along with the 50th anniversary of the founding of AFRRI. I see these results presented at professional meetings periodically, and they're published in radiobiology research and the Health Physics Society Journal. As to whether there has been a DU conference, the only one that I'm aware of is AFRRI's.
Conservative
Bob Zimmer Conservative Prince George—Peace River, BC
How about where you get on the phone and collaborate with other scientists internationally? We assume that's happening. Can you let us know if that is happening, and what does it look like to you?
Research Leader, Battelle Memorial Institute, As an Individual
The collaboration is happening. The way we collaborate is through scientific journal articles. The communications are peer reviewed. There are articles that go back and forth in which findings are concurred with or disputed. That's the way the collaboration occurs. Periodically in the U.S. there are meetings where DU is discussed, but other than the normal communications that happen between people who are studying the same thing, the primary way is through the literature.
Liberal
Sean Casey Liberal Charlottetown, PE
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Dr. Daxon, back in December 2009 an Italian court found the Italian Ministry of Defence guilty of negligence and ordered it to pay $1.4 million to the family of a Kosovo veteran because he had died of Hodgkin's lymphoma. The judge in that case said that there is obviously a link between the point of serving in an area where depleted uranium was used and the serious diseases that may result, including Hodgkin's lymphoma.
Two questions arise out of that. One, are you familiar with the case? Two, are you aware of any other litigation that dealt with a similar claim?
Research Leader, Battelle Memorial Institute, As an Individual
I am not familiar with the case; I am not aware of any other litigation; and I disagree with the conclusion.
Liberal
Sean Casey Liberal Charlottetown, PE
This committee is going to Washington next month. What advice do you have for us, as someone who's an expert in the field in the United States? Are there certain people or certain things this committee should see that would be valuable to us in advancing this study?
Research Leader, Battelle Memorial Institute, As an Individual
I would recommend you go see the Baltimore VA DU monitoring program. Talk to Dr. McDermott and her staff. I had the privilege of walking through her facility in 2001-02. It is a very caring group of people that I think are treating U.S. veterans correctly.
NDP
The Vice-Chair NDP Peter Stoffer
Sorry, if I may interrupt for one second, if you have any coordinates or numbers for that individual, we'd be very happy to receive this information later.
Research Leader, Battelle Memorial Institute, As an Individual
Absolutely.