Veterans Affairs Committee on March 21st, 2013

[Rosanne Dornan]

I would like to answer the first part.

With no disrespect to anybody who has appeared before you, we have read everything. We chat even now, send e-mails, contact regularly world-renowned scientists on this. They taught us how to understand this so that when we went up against the Veterans Review and Appeal Board to Federal Court, we could speak about it with confidence. Like this report, the only reports referenced in this are the ones that are saying depleted uranium is bad. How many reports are cited in here that say the opposite? There is just as much information out there on one side or the other. I could take their references, write a report just as long, and give you the other side, from the same references. Again, it wasn't balanced. You're not getting the other side of it.

[Steve Dornan]

To answer your question, I asked and was told it wasn't available. The other thing we did in the research was that we looked at what the testing entailed and what was involved. We pulled up what's called depleted natural uranium in urine, a PPT laboratory analytical exercise. This was Defence Canada.

Los Alamos laboratories decided to research on the labs. It wasn't just one. There were four labs doing testing on the Canadian soldiers. What it found was that none of those four labs could accurately measure depleted uranium in the urine samples that were provided to them. None of them. No one ever told the Canadian Forces members that their urine samples were incorrect and inconclusive. They were all told that they were negative. Then they found out all of a sudden that these labs could not do the testing. The only testing would be ICMS, which used to be offered at Memorial University. It no longer is, and a lot of these labs at that time couldn't do it. You could go to the U.K., but you'd have to do it on your own.

This was offered in VAC right up to two years ago. It was on the website and on the Canadian Forces website, but if you asked about it, they'd say that it didn't exist and that they couldn't do it. It has subsequently been removed.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Peter Stoffer]

Mr. Dornan, before you proceed, those four labs you talked about, was that part of your submission you gave to us?

[Steve Dornan]

Yes, it was.

[The Chair]

Thank you. We'll be getting to that.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Peter Stoffer]

Carry on.

[Sylvain Chicoine, NDP, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

What type of analysis was carried out? I do not understand. You are the second person who has told us that. At the beginning of the week, another veteran told us exactly the same thing, namely, that the companies could not conduct an adequate analysis of uranium levels. I do not understand that experts come here to talk about these results but tell us they cannot conclude that the problems of veterans are linked to depleted uranium. Are you saying that these urine tests are not valid? I simply want to find out what is what.

You are the second person to tell us that these companies could not provide valid analyses to establish the presence and the level of depleted uranium in urine. So I am a bit confused by what you say. I would simply like you to tell me what the facts are because I have not at all understood. Though I find this question extremely important.

[Steve Dornan]

It is very important because this test was done. I have it right here from Defence Canada. In fact Canadian Forces health services were part of this. They tested with Los Alamos labs. Los Alamos labs is the leading uranium researcher in the States, and they're the ones that provided the spiked control group urine samples to be tested. The results were that the labs could not accurately measure depleted uranium in the samples provided to them by Los Alamos labs.

As to why I wasn't tested, when I found this out, I saw no point. I was going to get a result saying that I don't have depleted uranium in my urine when in fact they didn't have the equipment to test it.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Peter Stoffer]

Thank you very much.

We now move on to Mr. Lizon, please, for five minutes.

[Wladyslaw Lizon, Conservative, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and good morning. Thank you all for coming here this morning, and my thanks to all the veterans here today for your great service to our country.

Before I ask my question, I would like to clarify something. There is a contradiction here. You asked for testing, and you were told that it was not available. Do we have records in the 392-page documentation that you provided? Is there any correspondence or e-mails in that regard?

[Steve Dornan]

When I was dealing with the hospital in Greenwood, I asked about it. They made inquiries to Ottawa, got back to me, and told me that it wasn't available. They checked with Canadian Forces Health Services Centre Ottawa, and the surgeon at that time said it was not available.

[Wladyslaw Lizon, Conservative, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

I suppose you wouldn't have any record of their inquiries?

[Steve Dornan]

No, I would not have a record of their inquiries, I'm sorry.

[Wladyslaw Lizon, Conservative, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

Okay. Thank you very much.

Mr. Dornan, can you speak to us about your military history? Can you just tell us what you've done over these 27 years of service to our country?

[Steve Dornan]

I've had a very eclectic career.

My primary job was as an airborne electronic sensor operator on a number of aircraft, and I know Mr. O'Toole is very familiar with them because we used to sit right beside him. I also did three years in command intelligence in Winnipeg, and in that time I was the field intelligence analyst in a number of countries.

I worked in Bosnia with the UNHCR, the United Nations humanitarian relief agency, doing airlift into Sarajevo. I was the air liaison to the French Foreign Legion in Sarajevo, doing anti-sniping work, and I went back two months later when we rebadged to IFOR. I was the air liaison to the British Army, 2nd Battalion Light Infantry, out of Banja Luka.

I was also the lead air defence weapon cantonment inspector. We were the weapons inspectors who ensured that the former warring parties had complied with the Dayton Accords. So we were the ones who actually went around and made sure all the weapons that were scattered through the country were put in places where we could monitor them. It was during that time that I became exposed to depleted uranium, because we were in the facilities doing the inspections, inside the vehicles actually struck by depleted uranium.

[Wladyslaw Lizon, Conservative, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

You already mentioned that you were deployed in Bosnia. Where else have you served?

[Steve Dornan]

I've also done two tours in Afghanistan subsequent to that. I was in Kabul setting up unmanned aircraft for the Canadian Army under the Sperwer program. I moved to Kandahar and worked on setting up the unmanned aircraft, the Heron, the Israeli product that we brought in to replace the Sperwer.

[Wladyslaw Lizon, Conservative, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

Can you tell the committee about your experiences in your deployments to those different places?

[Steve Dornan]

My experiences? Even though I have terminal cancer, even though it will cut my life short—I was given eight years to live 10 years ago and I'm still here—would I change anything?

No, I wouldn't. If I had been better informed of some of the risks at the time, I would have taken some precautions, but I wasn't, so I can't change that. In fact, my son is in the military, and I'm proud to have him in the military.

What I am not happy with is the way veterans like me have had to deal with Veterans Affairs, because once you leave the Canadian Forces and start with Veterans Affairs, you're a nobody. You have to prove that you exist to them to start. We fought for 10 years just to get a pension, because they looked for absolute causation. They did not follow the pension rules. They did not follow the Pension Act. In fact, the Federal Court wouldn't even take their case; they gave it to us, because they were so abysmally bad.

You may have seen us: we were on the national news with regard to that. My wife had to stage a sit-in just to get a pension, and we got it for medical mismanagement. You have 300 pages; VRAB got thousands, and none of it had to do with medical mismanagement, but that's what the minister—at that time Minister Blackburn—awarded us. It took two weeks for his legal people to look at it, look at all our evidence, and say, “Okay, this is medical mismanagement” and give us a pension.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Peter Stoffer]

Thank you, Mr. Dornan.

Thank you very much, Mr. Lizon.

[Wladyslaw Lizon, Conservative, Mississauga East—Cooksville, ON]

Mr. Chair, if you will allow me....

I would like to wish you all the best. We hope you will be around for not 10, but many, many more years, despite what medical professionals may be giving you.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Peter Stoffer]

Mr. Lizon, I'm sure I speak on behalf of the committee, that we would love nothing more than to hear more of your questions to all our witnesses as they come along. Thank you very much.

Mr. Casey, go ahead, please, for five minutes.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I want to start, Mr. Dornan, with the last slide you have up there. You talk about presumptive causation being the way ahead. This is a drum that I've been beating for a while. Essentially, you're saying that the burden of proof on claimants in front of Veterans Affairs Canada should be reduced. Is that fair?

[Steve Dornan]

Actually, no. What it is to meet that burden of proof is actually very well written within the Pension Act. The problem is, right now, that the Veterans Review and Appeal Board in our case did not follow that. They looked for absolute causality. There had to be no question that it was the depleted uranium and nothing else, and of course you can't do that. That's unrealistic. That's higher than what it is in a criminal court in Canada.

[Sean Casey, Liberal, Charlottetown, PE]

So they set the bar too high, and it should have been lower?