Evidence of meeting #72 for Veterans Affairs in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was korean.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

John Bishop  National President, Korea Veterans Association of Canada

8:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Greg Kerr

We're at that magic hour. We look forward to continuing the discussion on the act to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament, particularly clauses 156 to 160.

We very much welcome from the Korea Veterans Association of Canada, the national president, Mr. John Bishop. He assures me he's going to be very direct, and we'll certainly understand the comments and advice he has.

We look forward to that, sir, and once you've finished your presentation, the committee will be asking you some questions. Thank you for coming and welcome.

8:45 a.m.

John Bishop National President, Korea Veterans Association of Canada

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Do you want me to start now?

8:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Greg Kerr

Absolutely, please.

8:45 a.m.

National President, Korea Veterans Association of Canada

John Bishop

Thank you very much, honourable members. I am very privileged to be here.

I hope that I stay on subject and contribute something. When I wrote up my introduction, I wasn't too sure, although Cynara Corbin was very excellent in giving me some guidance.

As you probably know, there are not that many Korean veterans around anymore. About 60% have passed away, and there are more funerals than I can make time to go to. It's really quite interesting. I'm quite lucky, because I'll be around for a while yet, because only the good die young.

8:45 a.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

8:45 a.m.

National President, Korea Veterans Association of Canada

John Bishop

In the Korean War, 516 Canadians were killed and 1,558 were wounded. It was Canada's third-bloodiest conflict after World War I, which was the most severe, and World War II, which was number two.

This year, when the 60th anniversary of the war is being celebrated, we're not the vets we were 60 years ago. I'm 82 and I served in Korea in 1951, starting off at 19 years of age. We consider World War II vets who served in Korea to be very special, and believe it or not, in our battalion we had five Hong Kong veterans, who went through Hong Kong and then signed up for Korea. That's quite amazing when you think of it. I fortunately was invited to their “last hurrah”—if you want to call it that—and it was very interesting, because I was the only non-Kapyong veteran invited.

Many of us are not able to complete complex or even relatively simple tasks as effectively as we could a few years ago or decades ago. In fact, I find that it's very interesting to communicate with many of the veterans I deal with, because I've been with a unit in KVA and I have 50 subunits—I even have trouble figuring out where they all are—but it's getting more difficult all the time.

Many of the vets have lost their wives and/or companions, and that does make it bad.

I'll tell you what I think is a funny little story. A lot of people who have lost their wives or their girlfriends get a new girlfriend and they bring her to our meetings, and somebody says, “How come you picked a girl who isn't as good looking as your wife or your first girlfriend?” And he says, “She has her driver's licence.” We have reduced the number of our nighttime functions because of reduced driving ability. In British Columbia, you have to be very careful, because there seems to be a little thing going on now so that if you look old in your car, you're going to be stopped and checked.

I'm lucky to be the last president of Fourandex in Canada. Most of you have never heard of that. That was created in 1923, three years before the Legion was, and you had to have served in the trenches in World War I to belong to it. Then they went along and they allowed some navy to join it and some air force. Then they really got up—they even allowed about half a dozen Korean War veterans to belong to it.

I meet those people, and it's very interesting because the last unit is in Victoria—and they voted me to be their last president. That surprised me, and it's very interesting to learn what happens to people when they're in their nineties. In fact, some of them are 95 and 96, and they don't even bother trying to get benefits anymore, because of the struggle and their age. I think you might consider that sometimes, that when people get over 85 or so, a lot of them just say, “To hell with it,” and they probably don't make the ambitious try they would have made a few years before.

General health issues are a problem for Korean War veterans, very much so. Memory loss—believe it or not we used to be able to do everything and not have to write it down. Now we all carry what we call a brain book to keep track of all the different things that are on, such as to find this place this morning.

A lot of the veterans who served in Gagetown and in Vietnam, as I did, were sprayed with Agent Orange. I was sprayed four times in Gagetown in an Agent Orange area. What goes wrong? What is your ailment? It's very difficult to say what the problem is. I saw one of my doctors the other day and I'm in relatively good shape for an old guy. My doctor was quite frank. It really affects your kidneys. He said that I may not die for five or 10 years, but my kidneys are going to pack it in. He said I had some damage to my kidneys.

I'm not trying to make myself feel like a poor guy or anything. I'm trying to tell you what the Korean War veterans are suffering from. I happened to serve in 10 countries, but some served in more difficult postings and they're not well and they have problems. For example, part of my kidney deterioration is due to dehydration during my service in Korea and Ghana, West Africa. In Korea we didn't get water for days when we were on top of some of the mountains. It was good in the winter even if the snow was three-feet deep because you could drink the snow, but in the summer months it could be a real problem. We often drank water from the ditches of the rice paddies. What that did to us, I don't know.

I had malaria twice. Millions have died of malaria. I got malaria just after I returned from Korea, and when I was in Ghana I got my second bash of malaria. I point this out not to make you feel sorry for me. I say it again that sometimes Korean War veterans who served in many places, including Korea, had the old business of malaria. I don't think when we came back that they were too interested in what happened during the Korean War because it was only five years after World War II, and nothing was bigger than that.

Generally speaking, we Korean vets do not expect special consideration over other veterans who have served overseas, but age is a significant factor in our lives. We require more help, not less, and looking at all the veterans I know—I know more than the names I can remember—there's no question that they are of the age that they don't even bother if they know they have something serious and they know it was caused by their service. They are just of the age where they can't be bothered even applying because a lot of them are being turned down.

In conclusion, to demonstrate that veterans do not always get automatic recognition or benefit for their contribution, I have a couple of points to make. On my return from Korea in 1951 with one medal at that time, a World War II vet asked me what medal I was wearing. I said, “Korea”. He asked if they now gave medals for peacekeeping. That was this medal here. That was the only one we wore when we first came back. It was the only authorized medal.

When we in 2 PPCLI were awarded the United States presidential citation for the Battle of Kapyong in April 1951...and I have a postcard here that some of you might like to look at because it's a painting by a Korea veteran who didn't serve in Kapyong. It's the Kapyong picture. As a matter of fact, when I woke up after about 35 or 40 hours without sleep and I opened my eyes in my trench—it wasn't a trench, just a parapet built of rocks because it was a rock surface, so we couldn't dig—what's in that picture was the first thing I saw, an aircraft flying over because a lot of our companies had run out of ammunition, water, and food. That's enough about that.

By the way, I should mention we became the only unit awarded this recognition in Canadian history, this one right here. It was six years before we were authorized to wear this citation. I understood. I never felt bitter about it because World War II vets who were in charge—and I'm not against World War II vets—thought we shouldn't even get it because “nobody else has received it, why should you get it?” But we felt pretty proud because we were surrounded for about two days by 6,000 to 3,000 Chinese and we managed to hold them off. The most interesting thing there, just so I don't overstate it, was that the Chinese ran out of artillery shells and that's probably the only thing that saved us.

Anyway, that's my introduction. It's not the full 10 minutes. But I just wanted to make sure that you had a bit of understanding, and it may not even be what you wanted to hear.

Thank you very much.

8:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Greg Kerr

Thank you very much, Mr. Bishop. I couldn't help but notice when you said you need a brain book to find this place. There are a lot of MPs who could probably use that kind of assistance right now who are a lot younger than you are.

8:55 a.m.

A voice

I agree.

8:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Greg Kerr

Thank you very much.

8:55 a.m.

National President, Korea Veterans Association of Canada

John Bishop

I won't put that in the newspaper.

8:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Greg Kerr

We'll now begin our rounds of questions. We start with Mr. Chicoine.

You have five minutes, please.

8:55 a.m.

NDP

Sylvain Chicoine NDP Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Bishop, thank you for joining us. Given your sense of humour and quick wit, I have no doubt that the Korean War veterans are very well represented. In addition, you have received several medals. I thank you for and congratulate you on your contribution.

You talked at length about health care. So I have a question about that.

Committee members have often said that the allowance was a better way to help the poorest veterans. Now that the transfer of the last hospital is looming, I would like you to tell us how satisfied you are with the level of health care provided to Korean War veterans. Moreover, are you concerned about the future of long-term health care?

9 a.m.

National President, Korea Veterans Association of Canada

John Bishop

Thank you very much. By the way, I have a hearing aid. I lost my hearing in Korea and Vietnam and I hear nothing above 900 cycles. So this changes some of the frequency, and I heard your question. Of course when I came back from Korea, I tried to take a French course, and they said, “How come you're still in the armed forces? You shouldn't even be in the armed forces with your hearing. Get the hell out of the French course”. So I never did learn how to speak French. I tried.

9 a.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

9 a.m.

National President, Korea Veterans Association of Canada

John Bishop

As I understand your question, because I was listening to the French and the English, what you're interested in is how are we treated for our disabilities as retirees, now. Is that basically what you'd like to know?

9 a.m.

NDP

Sylvain Chicoine NDP Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC

Yes, among other things.

I would also like to know what you think about the health care provided. Are you worried about the future of long-term health care available to Korean War veterans?

9 a.m.

National President, Korea Veterans Association of Canada

John Bishop

Generally speaking, because of the circumstances when we first came back from Korea, we didn't even count. It was many a long time before we got the same benefits as World War II veterans. A lot of people lost interest and wouldn't even try to get them.

Of course, when they get older and they have a disability and they're spread all across Canada.... For example, in British Columbia, where I live, the veterans are spread throughout the province. When we have a meeting, it takes some people four days to drive in, get organized, come to the meeting, and go back. So they give up.

First of all, I would say most veterans don't even bother trying to apply because they've been turned down from the early days. I'm not saying it's all bad now. It is trying to change; there's no question about that. It is getting better, so I don't want to say that it's terrible now.

I would also say there's the other factor. The first battalion that I was with that went to Korea, for about six months before the brigade arrived we were Canadian army special force. We joined up for 18 months. Many of them served longer than some of the veterans did in World War II who only fought in Europe, because they did 13 months or so in Korea before they were brought home.

Then they got out of the forces and disappeared into the fabric of society. Now that sounds impossible, but from D-Day until the end of the war, they served longer than people served in World War II in combat. I'm not trying to overstate it. I'm just saying that's a fact. A lot of those people are not even interested. They don't even join KVA. We're not even able to find them to take them back to Korea on a revisit, with half their airfare and all of their expenses paid for by the Korean government.

Remember now, somebody aged 85 to 90 wonders why in the hell should they bother. There's a lot who don't even try, and they should, because there's an amazing number who cannot walk properly now. They've had a couple of hip operations. They've had a knee operation. Their health is not very good. But those who have assistance and do apply.... A lot of service officers who are serving with the Royal Canadian Legion help the Korean veterans, and they are a great help in getting people assistance for some of their problems.

I would support a statement that says not everything that's wrong with them is likely due to the Korean War. But I can tell you right now that almost all veterans, without question, only apply because of the way they look at it. There are things that were caused in Korea, such as climbing a mountain in the ice and the snow and losing a grip and falling 500 feet. Boom, boom, all the way down. I've seen it happen.

Generally speaking, Korean veterans only apply if they have a real problem.

I don't know if I've answered your question the way you—

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Greg Kerr

I think that will have to cover it for now. That's the time allotment for the first questioner.

We'll turn to our second questioner, Mr. Hayes, please, for five minutes.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

Bryan Hayes Conservative Sault Ste. Marie, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First, Mr. Bishop, thank you very much for your service. Secondly, thank you for your presentation. You said you weren't sure if this is what we wanted to hear. It's exactly what we wanted to hear. It was really well done, so thank you very much.

As you know, the war veterans allowance is being amended to exclude the disability pension from calculations of the allowance provided to a veteran. This is a step that I think will provide great financial assistance and increased benefits to Canadian war veterans who fought in the Korean War.

Would the members of your organization agree with that statement?

9:05 a.m.

National President, Korea Veterans Association of Canada

John Bishop

Yes, no question about it. They would agree with that statement.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

Bryan Hayes Conservative Sault Ste. Marie, ON

Thank you.

With the 60th anniversary of the Korean War armistice coming up this summer, are you pleased with these legislative amendments—you, yourself—which will increase the eligibility for the war veterans allowance to more Korean War veterans, and would you hope that all political parties would pass economic action plan 2013 before the summer recess so that Korean War veterans will have access to these benefits as soon as possible?

9:05 a.m.

National President, Korea Veterans Association of Canada

John Bishop

As you know, I'm not an expert on that whole thing, but I've read it. There's no question in my mind that one of the greatest blows I remember was hearing people discuss the clawback thing that happened a few years ago, where somebody was entitled to something, and then they also got a another entitlement, and all of a sudden they said, "You're only going to get so much, so we'll take away part of it." That being cancelled, to me, is one of the greatest steps.

I served with the American forces for quite a bit, and they have real problems along this line, too, with people losing their benefits, or all of a sudden not being recognized. I think that some weeks they have 50 people killing themselves because of their past experiences. In other words, they commit suicide. I don't know how many are doing that in Canada, but there's no question that we feel disappointed when we are not given due consideration.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

Bryan Hayes Conservative Sault Ste. Marie, ON

Do you believe that these proposed changes are an appropriate mechanism to accomplish continued successful implementation of the war veterans allowance with its mandate, which is to provide monthly financial assistance to help low-income veterans or their survivors meet their basic needs?

9:05 a.m.

National President, Korea Veterans Association of Canada

John Bishop

Having read a bit of that, I would say that if it happens we would be ecstatic. We could not complain about that because—I don't want to waste time with things I've already said—when we think back to 1950 to 1965, it was the forgotten war, and anything that happened to the Korean veterans was not considered, in my opinion.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

Bryan Hayes Conservative Sault Ste. Marie, ON

I'm looking forward to returning to my riding this summer because we have a parade organized already, and this is something that's long overdue.

Thank you very much, sir.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.