Veterans Affairs Committee on May 23rd, 2013

[Irene Mathyssen, NDP, London—Fanshawe, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much, Mr. Bishop. I appreciate hearing from you. I can remember learning years ago, to my dismay, that Korean War veterans weren't recognized. I'm glad we've finally come to our senses and we are indeed recognizing them.

I do need your advice on a couple of things. First of all, we talk about these three clauses in the budget implementation act and the need to pass them very quickly. The problem is that they're in this huge budget document—it's something like 400 pages—and it includes some other things.

Are you familiar with that budget? Did you know that it also includes an end to important environmental protections for lakes and rivers, and that it changes unemployment insurance so that a lot of people will not qualify when they're in need?

We're really concerned about the fact that all of this has been lumped together. We are faced with the reality that some parts of the budget, like these three clauses, should certainly pass. We're asking that the clauses that pertain to the clawbacks for veterans be separated out so that we can pass it quickly without engaging in this other political battle. Do you have any advice for us on that?

My second question is on the fact that Korean War veterans were for so long forgotten brings to mind the reality for modern-day veterans. They came back from peacekeeping missions that were horrendous, and from Afghanistan. Some of them experienced some quite terrible things, like your description of human beings trying to climb an icy mountain and suffering as a result of it.

Yet those veterans, those post-Korean War veterans, are excluded from long-term care. They're excluded from a great deal that we think all veterans should have access to. I wondered about your feelings in regard to those modern-day veterans and this dilemma that we have regarding the three clauses that would support veterans, in terms of the clawbacks, as they relate to this mammoth bill I described.

[John Bishop]

Thank you very much.

First of all, you have the 400-page document. I've never seen it, so you're far ahead of me in knowing the detail of it and I won't try to bluff my way. I did quite a bit of reading on the Internet, but there's no question that I don't understand it, because I never really got into it. I gather, from what's being said, that it is a great challenge for you to get a grip on it. I'll leave it at that. It's probably not a satisfactory answer but I would not be telling the truth if I tried to make myself appear wise.

With reference to modern-day vets, there's no question in my mind—and as I served in 10 countries, I think I can talk with a certain amount of understanding—that they should be given credit for the injuries that were caused by their service. There's just no question about it. I could go into some of the things that I've seen on some of my postings. I can tell you right now that I think what's missing—and I'm repeating myself in a way—is that, where injury is unquestionably caused by military service, something should be done for them. The families are suffering because of it. Again, I hate to use my own example but you won't even believe it, in my 37 years, with courses, overseas postings, exercises in Gagetown and in the U.S., my children still like me and are very happy. But for 12 of my 37 years I was not even home. That affects families quite a bit, and that's why you don't find....

For example, in my section in Korea, we had a chap that was 14 years of age. It's in my book. If anybody wants to see my book, I brought a couple of copies for you. The picture is there. Believe it or not, his parents turned him in and said to bring him home. When we finally said goodbye, and we were going to miss him, he was in tears because he'd just turned 15. When he got home, up to 10 years ago, he was so unhappy with his family that he never visited them. He wanted to stay. I realize the law is the law and he shouldn't be serving there at 15. But there's a picture in the Empress Hotel in Victoria of a soldier who won the Victoria Cross, and do you know how old he was when he won it? He was 14 years of age. I won't tell you how he got it.

Thanks very much. That's it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Greg Kerr]

Thank you very much, Mr. Bishop. We appreciate it.

Mr. Zimmer.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River, BC]

Thank you for coming, John. It's definitely an honour. I feel like I'm talking to Sgt. Rock himself sitting down there. It's an honour to have you here.

I guess why you're here in the first place—and Ms. Mathyssen asked you about it—is that our government wants to put action to words and that's why you're here to talk about the budget. We're actually putting money behind what we're talking about. We want to help veterans and that's why we're here today.

You said in your opening statement that Korea has been referred to as the forgotten war. We certainly haven't forgotten about it, and Minister Blaney hasn't forgotten about it either. A lot has been done recently to honour Korean vets. There's a new certificate of recognition that's been created. I think you've spoken to that. In January, Minister Steven Blaney announced 2013 as the Year of the Korean War Veteran, as it marks the 60th anniversary of the Korean War armistice.

I almost know the answer before I ask it, but how has that been received amongst your colleagues and you, to know that you're finally being recognized for your service in Korea?

[John Bishop]

There is no question that we're amazed that so much recognition is now given to it. The Koreans have always done that. I hate to admit this, but I've been back about five times because of my different appointments, plus I served there for two or three years as military attaché from 1982-85 approximately. I learned an awful lot during that time.

But we now are slightly embarrassed because so much publicity is being given to it and unfortunately with 60% of us now dead, it doesn't have the same meaning as having everybody alive. I don't think you'll find that there is animosity or dislike—I'm sure I'm saying this correctly—against members of Parliament for what they are trying to do. Your job is not easy either.

I did three tours here and I had some employment up here and I know that things are not easy. But if you can just make faults in it corrected—if you're able to do that—it would be better than saying here are 100 things that are wrong and then you correct 10, knowing the others aren't corrected.

Try to correct some of the things that I mentioned—age—things that were really attributable to the Korean War. You will be admired, there is no question.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River, BC]

I had the opportunity to play in the Imjin Classic, the cup that was on the Rideau that normally is played in Korea for the 60th anniversary. It was quite an honour just to step on the ice and it was interesting that the way it ended was that we tied. We didn't do that on purpose, believe me. We were both trying to win. This was the parliamentarians versus military and we managed to tie, so all our names go on the cup.

It was such an honour to be a part of that, and be a part of what you've done beforehand, in my little way.

Speaking more practically about PTSD, we too as the government are trying to move along and trying to help veterans with PTSD. My cousin has come back from Afghanistan and knows a lot of fellow soldiers who are struggling with this. Do you agree that it's important for us to focus on PTSD? Do you have some thoughts around that?

[John Bishop]

Post-traumatic stress syndrome or whatever you call it.... The name has changed quite a few times over the years. I think the best example is the American problem. They're getting more and more every day and they are realizing—and this has caused a problem because of the number they have serving overseas. They realize when they recognize it that they're spending hundreds of millions of dollars. I don't know why their ratio is so high completely, but there's no question it is an actual fact that has happened. There's no question that something should be done to correct that.

Of course it gets back to the other thing. It's a very tough call in some cases because in some cases post-traumatic syndrome may be the way the guy was born. It's a very difficult call, very difficult.

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River, BC]

I don't know if I said this initially. I know it's been said all the way from both sides, but just thanks for your service and for all the members in the room who have served our country, we are indeed honoured to have you here today. Thanks for coming.

[John Bishop]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Greg Kerr]

Thank you very much.

I should point out that Mr. Zimmer is such a gentle, young fellow with the greatest intentions. He mentioned a hockey classic. We should point out that the other night he knocked some teeth out of one of his own colleagues at a hockey game, so he's not quite as gentle as he might appear.

Anyway, thank you very much.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Conservative, Greg Kerr]

Our last questioner is Ms. Adams, please, for five minutes.

[Eve Adams, Conservative, Mississauga—Brampton South, ON]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

While Mr. Zimmer may not be so gentle, he is excruciatingly respectful of our veterans.

Mr. Bishop, I want to thank you very much for joining us here today.

I know it's been said that the Korean War really is the forgotten war, but as has been correctly pointed out, our government, the Harper government, has taken extraordinary steps to pay tribute to the service and sacrifice that you and your colleagues offered. This year has been named the Year of the Korean War Veteran. We've come out with the certificate. We're asking Legions and all Canadians to identify folks who served during the Korean conflict so we can offer them proper recognition during this important year.

I hate to digress to some technical questions, but we're here to talk about the budget. I would much rather listen to your extraordinary war stories because they really are fascinating. It's critical to continue to share those stories so that future generations have them.

If I might, I'll ask you a few specific questions regarding the WVA amendments. I'd like to talk a little about how a series of small changes can have a very significant impact on many folks. With the changes that are being proposed as part of this budget, we would be providing increased long-term care to over 2,000 additional veterans. We would also, for the first time, provide the war veterans allowance to over 3,000 new veterans, and we would see nearly $100 million invested in veterans through the war veterans allowance.

Do you think these small changes will have a great and far-reaching impact on veterans?

[John Bishop]

There's no question in my mind that a number of firm, not-to-be-changed improvements will make a great difference. You must remember that we didn't get much assistance for a long time, and now getting specific ones.... But you realize that with the ages of our people, after the 60th anniversary of the ceasefire, Korean veterans will be disappearing very quickly. It's amazing the number who are passing away right now every week—just so many of them.

As a great inclusion to the anniversary, if you can pass something with the specific ones you're talking about, then that's all that's required, in my opinion, because of the circumstances of the past and what it is today.

I don't know if that helps or not.

[Eve Adams, Conservative, Mississauga—Brampton South, ON]

It sure does. Thank you, Mr. Bishop.

The war veterans allowance also provides financial assistance to low-income veterans and their immediate survivors. While we want to provide assistance to all veterans, would you agree that our focus should be on those who need the financial assistance most? You spoke to this a little earlier.

[John Bishop]

When you say you pay more attention to them, I would agree, but don't turn off the others. There's no question in my mind that some of those who came back, who were badly injured and all the rest of it, didn't have the health or the way to get themselves a great job with a big pension, etc., and they don't have much in the way of finances. I think most Korean veterans would agree those are the people to help.

Someone who was healthy enough—I can think of a few who ended up at the legislature in Victoria, they worked there as guards and so forth—gets a small pension, and with their other, they're fine. Someone who didn't have that has no income. In other words, he might have been unemployed for a long time, he might have been in hospital because something was wrong with him, maybe it was because of his service. They are the ones I worry about.

[Eve Adams, Conservative, Mississauga—Brampton South, ON]

As do we.

If I might add on a personal note, you have a very practical yet very kind way about you.

It's interesting, I've spoken with many Koreans who have now settled in Canada, and they will share stories of how extraordinary they found the fact that Canadians were willing to lay their lives on the line to help them in their hour of need. I just wanted you to have that information. I'm sure you've probably heard that—

[John Bishop]

Yes.

[Eve Adams, Conservative, Mississauga—Brampton South, ON]

—but please do take this back to your members and share it, because it really is a proud moment for any Canadian to hear that, and it's only due to your sacrifice.

Recently, the minister—

[The Chair, Conservative, Greg Kerr]

Very briefly, please.

[Eve Adams, Conservative, Mississauga—Brampton South, ON]

I'll be very brief.

The Minister of Veterans Affairs recently joined about 36 Korean vets and took a trip to Korea. I wondered if you could provide any feedback on what your members thought of that experience.

[John Bishop]

What they thought of the...?

[Eve Adams, Conservative, Mississauga—Brampton South, ON]

The experience.

[John Bishop]

There's no question about it, those who are not in touch with it because of other experiences are overwhelmed by the revisit. There's no question about it at all.

It's very easy to push it to one side, but there's one factor.... I wouldn't want to put this in the newspaper, but I have found this during my time in Korea in different roles. I think we provided the third-largest fighting group, and they remember that, but there's one overriding thing. They've always had suspicions about the Americans and the Brits as to what their real purpose was. Is it control of Asia? Is it control of what's on there?

We are looked at differently. We're looked at as people who went over there to help them. We didn't go over there to perhaps increase the effectiveness of our empire.

[Eve Adams, Conservative, Mississauga—Brampton South, ON]

Thank you very much.