Evidence of meeting #15 for Veterans Affairs in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was street.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Greg Kerr
Not right now. I will when we're through with the witnesses. I'm not going to interrupt these witnesses because you're on some tirade. Get that through your head.
Conservative
Royal Galipeau Conservative Ottawa—Orléans, ON
Thank you very much for your courtesy, sir.
Thank you very much for being here. I want to tell you that I have a lot of sympathy for what I heard and witnessed.
For the purposes of the six minutes that I've been offered, I'll address myself to Mr. Cousineau, if you don't mind.
Mr. Cousineau, later if I have a minute left, I'll ask about your first name. I'm intrigued by it.
I want to commend you for the action you've taken in order to raise awareness of the therapy benefits of service animals. Your walking expedition has demonstrated incredible patience, perseverance, and persistence.
Now, from all corners of the veterans community, many people—veterans groups, advocacy groups, and individuals—are vocal about the Veterans Charter and the services provided by Veterans Affairs Canada. Many of these intervenors were involved in lengthy consultations with the Government of Canada then in office in 2005, when the charter was written.
I'm just going to leave you with an open-ended question, sir. You're a veteran who is actively engaged in making an impact in the veterans world. I'm interested to know how the Department of Veterans Affairs can make improvements in the way that they do business.
The floor is yours, and I'll forgive you for not wearing a tie.
Captain (Retired), As an Individual
Thank you.
Actually, I'll address that point. I will never wear a necktie in my life. When you put 13 turns in a rope you will understand what the hell that means and why I will never wear one. I'm sorry if it offends the committee that I don't wear a tie, but shit happens, sorry—and that probably was out of order too, but reality is what reality is.
Conservative
Captain (Retired), As an Individual
Okay.
Everybody makes mistakes. There is not a person in this room who has not been party to a mistake. The true hallmark of greatness is what you do after you've identified that mistake.
The history of the new Veterans Charter and the enhanced new Veterans Charter and whatnot, it's well known. It's a matter of history, and I think what you're hearing from the witnesses and what you're hearing in the street from other veterans' advocates and from veterans themselves is that there are issues. There are a lot of issues and they need to be addressed. There are strengths and there are weaknesses to parts of those programs, and this committee can hopefully take the steps to address some of the weaknesses so that those mistakes that were made become a thing of the past and veterans, as they move forward, realize that their service is acknowledged and valued and is not marginalized.
With regard to the lump sum payment, there's a very well-documented case of a veteran who lost a portion of his brain. We assigned a dollar value to that, and we gave it to him. I don't even know how the hell you deal with that. What's part of your brain worth? Is it worth so much for a month? A year? Five years? Ten years? As long as you live? I'm thinking the answer is as long as you live, and I think that the benefit stream has to be commensurate with the sacrifice that was made.
People in the military are asked to do things and they do them. I don't think any of us regrets our service. The regret comes when we feel that we've been marginalized by a government that doesn't value that service, and that's where it becomes incumbent upon Veterans Affairs to make sure that the veterans never feel that betrayal.
How do they that? Well, for starters, they make sure that veterans live out the remaining days of their lives secure in the knowledge that they're never going to run out of money, that the old pension act—as long as you live—it's there. I think that is something that you've heard time and time again. If the earnings loss benefit was universal and applied and continued forward, that would take away some of the dollar value issues, the monthly income stream. But it's hard to fathom how you arrive at—what is it now, $298,000? Oh, we're all the way up to $301,000! Woohoo, go us!
Being 100% disabled nets you $301,000. At 5% interest, that's $15,000 per year in taxable interest. Even at a 27% marginal rate, what are you looking at? That's a thousand dollars a month, if you manage to invest at all. That's not much for a lifetime of pain and suffering at 100% disabled, is it?
Conservative
Royal Galipeau Conservative Ottawa—Orléans, ON
Could I ask a quick question about his name? I'll ask him after.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Greg Kerr
No, I'm sorry. You can ask him after the meeting's over. That would be fine.
Mr. Rafferty, please, you have six minutes.
NDP
John Rafferty NDP Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON
Thank you very much, Chair.
Thank you very much, both of you, for being here. There's lots of food for thought.
I'd like you to both answer this, although I think it was just Mr. Cousineau who mentioned this.
This concerns help for families. It has been pretty clear, particularly even today, with the press conference today, that the help for families is not there. It's mentioned in the charter, but it's certainly not clearly explained what that help for families would be.
Could you both comment on what needs to be in the charter to ensure that there is help for families? I'm thinking of spouses in particular, but what would you like to see spelled out in the charter for help for families?
National Executive Director, National Executive Board of Directors, Veterans Emergency Transition Services
Perhaps VETS Canada doesn't represent what you need to talk to today. Any support that you give the family obviously is going to help our cause because it will give the family a few more resources to deal with when a member or their loved one becomes homeless. Honestly, to list them out, it would be my personal opinion not that of VETS Canada because we don't deal with that. We deal with the homeless and at-risk.
Captain (Retired), As an Individual
For those of you...and I'm sorry I didn't bring a copy of it with me, the latest Chief of Military Personnel newsletter that was put out by Major-General Dave Millar has an article in it entitled “The Mental Health Iceberg”. I was the author of that article for Dave Millar.
The premise is that by the time you see the issues of mental health rearing themselves in the workplace, the iceberg is huge at home. The entire support system that the military is trying to build in the military family resource centres, the military family support centres, and whatnot, our spouses and our families deal with things that just aren't there in the civilian world.
I had the opportunity today to spend some time with Colonel Russ Mann who oversees the military family resource centres on behalf of the military and in conversation this was actually a point that he and I were talking about. In the veterans community there need to be resources because when somebody is dealing with serious trauma in their family—physical trauma, mental health issues—it affects everybody. Nobody splashes around in a cesspool without somebody getting splattered. Those who get splattered are those closest to the cesspool. It's just that simple. Our families do need that support.
If Veterans Affairs were to take steps towards enhancing the programs, because there is a lot that our spouses wear.... I know that some of the benefits are transferable, for example, the educational benefits. I know of one gentleman who was severely injured with traumatic brain injury. He will never work again. His wife has gone back to school to gain a career and hopefully be able to enhance the family situation. That's brilliant.
I'm not sure if everybody is aware of what's available. In some cases it may need to be an educational process, an awareness process, but our families need that support just like we do because it is a team effort.
NDP
John Rafferty NDP Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON
We heard from a spouse of a soldier who has PTSD and has had it for a number of years. One of the things she said that really had an impact on me was that this was the first time in four years—he was there today—that he had been out of the house.She said that they live in poverty. She can't finish her schooling. She can't work. She has to be with him all the time, but there's no way to compensate for that, financially even. I don't know if you could make a comment on that.
Captain (Retired), As an Individual
From the period of 2006 to pretty much 2010, I spent a significant portion of each day living in a woodshed. It had one door, one window and I could watch them both. I didn't spend a whole lot of time with my family.
I can tell you that what I was earning while I was in that woodshed was negligible. My family teetered on the brink of financial disaster. To hear that he was in his house for four years is not surprising at all.
I'm trying to be the stopgap in some ways so that the people I deal with don't wind up dealing with Barry and his organization. The fact that we even have Barry's organization should make us stop and think.
Conservative
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Like everybody else, I thank you for your service and for being here today.
What we are trying to do—and there have been some good suggestions today all around—in this committee, on all sides of the committee is to find things that we can do better. I totally agree with you that there are some significant challenges. I think the dog care one is a simple one that frankly should be added to the list of benefits for people with dogs.
Burden of proof and transfer of info are two big issues, and I and others have been personally pushing on those. That does need to change.
I would suggest, Mr. Cousineau, that perhaps we have earnings loss benefit, permanent impairment allowance, and so on that are monthly, and some of them go to death. If we made the burden of proof in particular easier and those did become.... Perhaps we should have called them pensions instead of earnings loss benefit and permanent impairment allowance. But those would in fact be a pension, along with the lump sum. That would go a long way, I think, to making an improvement. Is that a fair statement?
Captain (Retired), As an Individual
Yes. There's a Latin expression and I forget the Latin. But it basically is “to be rather than to appear”. So optics are very important. If they became the “permanent injury pension” and the “earnings loss pension”, it would certainly clarify the issue in a big way.
Now the standard that you have to meet to get those in some cases—I don't want to belabour the point, but you guys know the percentages of the clients who are on the PIA. There are several grades of the PIA, and very few people make the top grade.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
I agree with you. I've said this before in this committee. You're either permanently impaired or you're not. There are no gradations to that; you either are or you aren't. So I would support that.
I wanted to ask you something, though. You talked about case managers a lot and the importance of good case managers and qualified case managers and so on. We made an announcement today about priority hiring for military members and veterans for public service jobs. Would you see that being a good tool for getting military veteran folks qualified as case managers?
Captain (Retired), As an Individual
Wow.
Would veterans be good case managers? That is a very tough question. The reason I say that is that I know my own case manager has a degree in social work. A lot of military MOCs don't necessarily have transferable skills.
