Evidence of meeting #101 for Veterans Affairs in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was homelessness.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Neil Ellis
Good afternoon, everybody.
I'd like to call the meeting to order, please.
Today we'll start with our witness panel, Dr. Segaert and Mr. Stanfield. We'll have 10 minutes of testimony from each witness, and then we'll do our rounds of questioning.
We'll start with Dr. Segaert.
The floor is yours.
Aaron Segaert As an Individual
Thank you for having me here today.
My name is Aaron Segaert. I led research for the homeless individuals and families information system from 2009 to 2017. HIFIS is the common term for this. It's a computer system that was built by the federal government and installed at homeless shelters across the country. It gives information about shelter stays. We do research with that data.
Although not everyone experiencing homelessness uses a shelter, HIFIS contains a very large slice of the homeless population and allows us to understand a lot about the different types of people who use shelters across Canada.
HIFIS started collecting information about homeless veterans in 2013, and it took about two to three years for the data to really accumulate.
The first research we did was in 2014. Actually, it took place in 2015, using 2014 data. That report was called the “The Extent and Nature of Veteran Homelessness”. I didn't name it that. It was named by comms instead of by me. They put the “The Extent and Nature of” on there. HIFIS can't tell us a whole lot about the “nature” of veteran homelessness. It can tell us a lot about the numbers, though.
This was the first report that had ever given us an estimate of how many homeless veterans there might be in Canada. No one really had any idea before that. What we found, using a sample of, I think, 60 shelters, was that there were about.... We estimated that there were about 2,250 veterans using shelters annually. That's about 2.7% of shelter users.
The important thing to keep in mind with shelter statistics is that we look at them over the course of a year. That doesn't mean that there are 2,200 homeless veterans right now. It means that over the course of a year, that's how many use shelters. The other thing is that any veterans who didn't use shelters wouldn't be included in that number, so there could be more.
The other interesting finding in that initial report was that veterans were more likely to be episodically homeless than other shelter users were. What this means is that they're in and out of homelessness. They keep returning, over and over again. Technically the definition is.... A homeless episode is a time using a shelter separated by at least 30 days before returning to the shelter again. If you have at least three of those in one year, you're considered episodically homeless. We found that veterans were about twice as likely as other shelter users to be episodically homeless.
The other thing we found interesting was that there were quite a few female veterans using shelters. In the general population of homeless shelter users, it's about a 70:30 male to female split. We found the same thing among veterans, but when we looked at veterans under 25, it was actually about half and half. About half of the veterans under 25 using shelters were female.
I think a lot of the idea we have about homeless veterans is that they're older men, but at this point, most of the veterans of the big wars are very old and are not using shelters anymore. These are people who have been in the military in some capacity. It's also not necessary that they had been overseas or in combat. That's why we have some people who are saying they had served in the military, and who are quite young and finding themselves homeless.
Two years later we released another study called “The National Shelter Study”, which isn't specifically about veterans, but it did mention veterans in there. We have an updated number.
For that report, we used a much larger sample and a more sophisticated methodology. We found that out of the approximately 137,000 to 156,000 Canadians who use homeless shelters each year, about 2.2% were veterans in 2014, which is the first year that we were able to produce that number. This comes out to about 2,950 veterans, in that estimate. It's a little bit higher than the other one, but these are estimates. There's some error around it. It's just a guideline. It's not an exact number.
Again we found the same type of pattern, where about 70% were male and 30% were female. We also again found that over half of the veterans under 30 were females. As far as the males go, they tended to be slightly older on average than other male shelter users.
In that study, we found no significant difference in the length of stay between shelter users with and without military service. That particular study is not really designed to look at chronic and episodic homelessness, so we didn't have any new figures for that.
I would say that the figure of 2,950 is more accurate than the initial study with the estimate of 2,250 veterans. It uses far more data, a better sampling method, and all that.
I think ESDC will be releasing 2015 and 2016 figures in the next few months. I know that at the time I left ESDC and the homelessness partnering strategy, they were working on updates to that study.
The third method that gives us a glimpse about homeless veterans is the point-in-time count. There was a Canada-wide point-in-time count in 2016. The counts in cities are where they go out on one day and just look for people who are in the shelters and on the street. They typically find a few more veterans than we do in the shelter studies. We've heard anecdotally that a lot of veterans don't like to use shelters. Typically, in the point-in-time counts, around 5% to 6% of the people counted have served in the military. This varies by community as well. I think the results showed that somewhere between 0% and 13%, depending on the community, were veterans.
Some of the reasons for the differences could be that veterans are just less likely to use shelters, so more of them are found when you consider sheltered and unsheltered homeless people. It could be due to missing data in our shelter studies. As I mentioned, within HIFIS, the software that the government provides to shelters to count homelessness, we only started rolling out the veteran question in 2013. It takes quite a long time for that to be populated, so there are still some cases where that is missing and we don't know whether someone is a veteran or not. It could also be under-reported, because it's based on self-report and some people might not disclose that they are veterans, or they might not be asked. For whatever reason, that data might be missing.
These are estimates over a one-year period that I have been talking about, the 2,250 and the 2,900 veterans. That shows that there definitely are homeless veterans, and we can probably safely say there are more than 2,000 veterans experiencing homelessness in Canada each year. It's about 2% to 3% of the shelter population. I believe veterans are around 2.4% of the Canadian population, so that means they're not overrepresented in homeless shelters.
Male veterans tend to be older. Female veterans tend to be younger. This is probably an area for further research, probably not using the HIFIS dataset but in terms of actually going out and trying to find young veterans and talking to them about their experiences of homelessness.
The other interesting thing when we compare the shelter studies that I worked on with the point-in-time counts is that we should try to find out more about the veterans who are experiencing homelessness, whether they are less likely to use shelters than others and find out what the reasons for that might be.
That's about the gist of what I can tell you. If you have more questions about statistics, I'm your man for that. If you want to know more about people who actually interact with veterans, I'm not really able to say much about that.
Thank you.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Neil Ellis
Thank you.
Next, from South Mid-Vancouver Island Zone Veterans Housing Society, we have Mr. Stanfield. You have the floor. Thank you for coming.
Angus Stanfield Chairman, Cockrell House, South Mid-Vancouver Island Veterans Housing Society
First, I'd like to thank you for the opportunity to be here today, to share some of our experiences that we've learned over the last 10 years.
In the spring of 2009, we started Cockrell House and got our society status in August of that year. It is transitional housing and I believe that we're still the only such place in Canada.
Over the years, we have participated in two of the HPS studies that the doctor spoke of. That's where we learned an awful lot of what we know, from the professionals. We found it to be of good value.
The housing first model is the slot that they put us in. We are convinced that it works, but not in isolation. Food and a bus pass, which allows mobility, cannot be overrated. That's right from the start, when we first get one of them in. You give somebody a bus pass and it's more than giving them a car. They can finally get around. If they have an appointment, they can keep the appointments. It's really been an important part of our program.
Counselling and peer support must be part of the program. We would like to be a success with them all. We don't want it to be a revolving door. We don't want it to be considered just a cheap place to live. It's a place where you can decompress, sit back and take stock of your situation, to figure out where you are and how you got there.
We're often asked questions like, “Why are these people helping us? We've been alone drifting and whatnot”. I think the relative comfort that they feel.... Without that relative comfort, it's difficult to make good decisions. When you wind up in a place, like being homeless, you're not in a position to make good decisions. You're just not. I believe this could happen to any of us.
We immediately hook a new resident up with a Veterans Affairs caseworker, if they don't already have one. Typically, most don't at that point in time. They should, but for various reasons, they don't. The Veterans Affairs office is a great big scary place. An awful lot of them have said, “I went in there and I was treated like a dog”. Of course, that is not true, since it's just their perception. They walked in and they didn't know the questions to ask.
We get them hooked up with a caseworker right away and we've been really fortunate. We've had some great front-line people with Veterans Affairs. They are people that care a lot more than just a nine-to-five job. There are some excellent people doing some great work.
Another thing that we've learned is the value of veterans helping veterans. This was something we envisioned at the start, but we were unsure how it would work. It does work and I think it's a big part of the success that we see. The realization that they are still part of a family, with others that have served, can be quite a revelation. People that have served are used to being part of a military family, where they have each other's backs. It's the culture, so to find out that now that they're out and they're veterans they are still part of a family, it's a big step.
One of the better things that we've done is that we have a resident manager now who is there 24-7. He's a veteran himself. He was kind of drifting in life. I talked to him for a little bit and got him to come on board. He's totally committed. He did 20 years in the service and came out as a sergeant. They relate to him.
Another real bonus is that some people that have gone through Cockrell House and are now back in society. They have connected with family members and whatnot. With just a phone call, they're willing to come and speak to the guys and women. As the doctor mentioned, there are female homeless veterans, too. In the time that we've been going, I think there have been seven females who have gone through our program.
A veteran, a man or woman who has served, is different from those who have not. They possess pride and an understanding and acceptance of rules, an understanding of rank and structure, of responsibility. They want to know what the rules are. They might want to figure out how to get around them, but they want to know what the rules are and who ultimately they have to answer to. They were trained that way, and understanding some of these things has made it a little easier to help them.
Rarely have we found a veteran in a shelter—rarely. They are more likely to avoid society, to shun the urban setting. You're not going to see them sitting on the corner in a city. You're just not. It's back to that pride. A lot of the ones who are still of age are possibly living in the bush. We found them living there, or maybe they have a camper that's sitting on the ground and stuck away. Also they're couch surfing. Often we've had quite a few who have been living with a buddy in their basement, and finally the buddy's wife says, “Look, he's been here long enough. Christmas is coming. We have guests. He has to go.” They hear about Cockrell House and that's where they end up.
Most of them, a large percentage of them, aren't living in shelters. The fact that they won't have anything to do with a shelter, I think, skews some of the statistics too, because obviously that's where the statistics have to be collected. But the others, how do you ever account for them? I've come to the conclusion, and my belief is, that probably 8% to 10% of the homeless population has worn a uniform.
Mental health and PTSD and whatnot are not usually primary causes of homelessness. In a lot of cases, any addictions are self-medicating health issues. The average stay at Cockrell House is about one year, although a few have stayed with us for less than a year and successfully got back into society. Many have been in the two-year range.
Indeed, we have one veteran right now who has already been with us two and a half years, who served 19 years in the military. He was medically released, and within the next few years he fell apart. His family fell apart, and he was living in his vehicle when we first found him. He's taken courses, he's worked hard, he completed his grade 12 and he's now taking a course in addiction counselling. He has a son with special needs and he's very focused. I think his son is definitely his motivation. We're going to continue to support him until he's completed the courses. It doesn't matter how long, because we don't have a definite period of time. We can't say, “You've hit three years. You have to go.”
When we started we set three years for various reasons, but we got rid of that. We put it to two years and we got rid of that. With everybody, it's whatever each person needs and what will help them. The idea is, once again, that it's not a revolving door.
The cost to operate the house works out to be about $1,100 a month. While that seems low, there are quite a few reasons. One of them is that we're all volunteers, but we have a lot of in-kind help. The only furniture we buy is a brand new bed when we get somebody. Other than that, all the furniture and things we have are donated. There are people who pass away, and the estate will say, “We've heard about Cockrell House and the veterans. We'd like them to have first shot at everything they want before we put it out for sale.” We've had a lot of that. We've had people, especially veterans themselves, downsize and go into a condo.
We have gotten much of the furniture that way, and some of it nice stuff. When veterans are finished, when they are successful and can move on to their own place, we send them away with everything they need. They come in with nothing; you can't send them back out with nothing. We send them with everything they need to set up a home. In some cases, if it's going to be an apartment, it's first month's rent and whatnot. In many cases we'll continue supporting them for a while, even if it's just with a bus pass or a food voucher to help out now and then, just to get them on their feet.
The other thing we do, after the first couple of months, is assess each individual's own situation. We encourage them to make a contribution—we're careful not to call it rent, ever—to the project. This can vary from $200 to $500 a month, depending, obviously, on their income. This has proven helpful not just to extending our program but to their feeling of worthiness. They are now helping themselves. They're helping the program. They're helping what's helping them. We found that to be quite inspirational.
Our daily struggle, of course, has been for funding. We've never received any financial support from the federal or provincial governments. Without the Royal Canadian Legion we couldn't survive.
But we have to grow. The need is too great. Right now, if we had three times the number of rooms we have, I'm confident that within three or four months the place would be full. It's not that we turn people away. Those who will go to a shelter go to a shelter or just stay where they are until we have room. I wish it weren't so.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Neil Ellis
Thank you. I'm going to open up the questioning now.
We're going to cut down to five-minute rounds so that everybody can get in today.
Mr. McColeman, you're up.
Conservative
Phil McColeman Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
Thank you, Chair.
Thank you for being here as witnesses.
I'm interested, Mr. Segaert, that you've moved on to what I read as being a private company doing software development and consulting. Are you doing any work, in this space, the analysis of homelessness of veterans?
As an Individual
Not specifically of veterans, I'm still doing some work for some communities and the “Canadian Observatory on Homelessness”. It's research on homelessness in general, not specifically of veterans.
Conservative
Phil McColeman Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
Okay. You are, then, staying on the research side of it in a broader sense.
Mr. Stanfield, when you use the number $1,100 a month, is that per resident?
Chairman, Cockrell House, South Mid-Vancouver Island Veterans Housing Society
Yes.
Conservative
Phil McColeman Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
That's what I wanted to clarify.
You also said that the average stay, if you averaged all the stays, is one year.
Chairman, Cockrell House, South Mid-Vancouver Island Veterans Housing Society
Yes.
Conservative
Phil McColeman Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
Do you have counsellors or support staff who mentor? You were saying “peer support”, but do you have any counsellors involved in advising individuals what the next steps should be or helping them make those next steps?
Chairman, Cockrell House, South Mid-Vancouver Island Veterans Housing Society
Yes, absolutely we have. I think it's really important to have the professionals involved. The Veteran Affairs caseworker can be a big help to their networking. Also, with OSISS we have a peer support worker who's been with us right from the very start. He'll drop in two to three times a week.
We make sure they are getting the help they need. We've been fortunate that Veterans Affairs now has assigned us two caseworkers. When we first started, that was something that had never been done and they didn't feel that they wanted to do it. Now we have caseworkers who just look after our guys.
Conservative
Phil McColeman Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
You said you're trying to get government support.
What have been the barriers, in your estimation, to your not receiving any government support to this point in your history?
Chairman, Cockrell House, South Mid-Vancouver Island Veterans Housing Society
Maybe we haven't tried hard enough. A couple of times in the past, when I felt that we were getting pretty close, there would be a kind of reset.
Of course, it comes down, at whatever level of government, to their funding. Every Veterans Affairs minister who has served since we started had been out to visit Cockrell House, as have the deputy ministers and the ombudsman. I think we've had the right people look at it, but then they go back—and you people understand the workings of government a lot better than I do—and there's one pot of money.
An easy thing to say at the end of the day, if you're the federal government, is that this is all good, but housing is a provincial issue, and all of a sudden it has cut out what I think should be the natural place for us to get funding—somehow through Veterans Affairs. Veterans Affairs and we have the exact same mandate, and that's to look after veterans.
Conservative
Phil McColeman Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
I remember the launch of housing first in the last Parliament. A number of corporate partners were involved in that, including Home Depot and others. They were putting financial support into it from the private side, and I don't know whether it was matching funds but the government was providing input also.
You mentioned that model of housing first as meaning more than just a roof over your head. There are a lot of other support services that these people need to get their lives on a track that's going to end up with their being successful in changing their circumstances and becoming contributing members of society. Many of them want that, but they need all the help to get through those initial stages.
Has anyone come from the government to study your model? You mentioned somewhere along the line that you think you're the only place in Canada that has this kind of service going at this level. Has anyone approached you from Veterans Affairs, or other housing initiatives in this country, to study your model as a model that's duplicable across the country?
Chairman, Cockrell House, South Mid-Vancouver Island Veterans Housing Society
Not as such. We've been part of different studies, workshops and forums, and we've had our input. It's taken this many years of evolution to get to where we are now. This would be an ideal time for somebody to do that study.
Like you mentioned, some of the money that has gone in before was always for the broader picture, for the research and whatnot. It never filtered down to a little, individual program like ours. This would be the time to do it.
What we have now I could call a template. It could be duplicated elsewhere, and I think it should be.
Liberal
Doug Eyolfson Liberal Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you both for coming.
Mr. Stanfield, you talked about mental illness. I agree that mental illness is not necessarily the only cause of homelessness, but we know there's a high correlation between mental illness and homelessness, not just among veterans but among the general homeless population.
Do you ever have challenges with veterans who are resistant to help and seem in the grip of a mental illness, where you have someone you know needs help but who may not be competent to refuse because he or she has an ongoing mental health issue?
Chairman, Cockrell House, South Mid-Vancouver Island Veterans Housing Society
Once again, this is where the Veterans Affairs caseworker comes in. On the island, Dr. Malcolm and Associates are the contractors. They have a large number of psychologists who specialize in this and indeed work with veterans. We do everything we can to ensure that they're hooked up together. It starts out with just a visit and having a meeting, an interview. Veterans Affairs, I must say, has been very good at providing that.
I can think of four who have been given the big program that Veterans Affairs has. Veterans Affairs sent them back here for a course that is specifically designed for them—a very expensive course. We've had it work to where they've taken it...one person actually went through it twice. These things don't always work the first time.
We constantly try to make sure they are hooked up with the best professionals. As we've gone along, our network has grown too, with contacts. We have people like that now, who will reach out to us and ask, “Is there any way we can help?”
Liberal
Doug Eyolfson Liberal Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB
Okay. Thank you.
With mental health, and even just ongoing health problems—and particularly with older veterans you're going to have more health problems—do you find that once veterans with underlying health problems are hooked into your organization there's better monitoring of clients for their health issues? It could be medication for mental health, medication for diabetes or things like that. Do you find that it facilitates getting their health issues under control?
Chairman, Cockrell House, South Mid-Vancouver Island Veterans Housing Society
It does. Yes, it helps. There's a woman named Deborah Morrow who teaches nurses and whatnot over on the mainland. It's one of the perks for some of her students. She'll bring them over every six weeks or so and do exactly what you're talking about. They go right through everything, right down to foot care and a diabetes check. All of this is for free.
Liberal
Doug Eyolfson Liberal Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB
That's remarkable. It sounds quite valuable.
Chairman, Cockrell House, South Mid-Vancouver Island Veterans Housing Society
They're great people.
Liberal
Doug Eyolfson Liberal Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB
There's something else I was very impressed with. It's something that I think to the general public sounds like a little thing, but it's a big thing. You mentioned things such as provision of a bus pass. I'm a physician. I know it's a big challenge to get people to and from appointments. You get people who miss appointments simply because they didn't have bus fare and couldn't afford a taxi—that sort of thing. Congratulations on that, because it's a very on-the-ground practical solution that I can see being very helpful.
You said that once they're on their feet and back out in the community, your organization can provide some of these ongoing supports. If people can't afford a bus pass, then even once they've graduated, as it were, from your organization they can still get those supports in the community.