Veterans Affairs Committee on March 20th, 2019

[Dr. Barry Waisglass]

Which responds better depends on what study you look at, and I don't think it's important. Whether it's PTSD or chronic pain or anxiety or insomnia, cannabis works for all of those different problems.

What I would like to address is the other part of your question, about the specificity or the matching. One of your colleagues asked that too but didn't get my answer. There's a great deal of scientific activity right across the planet. In Canada alone, we have over 50 different academic centres that are studying something about cannabis, from plant science right through to clinical trials on humans using cannabis products. In our company alone, we have just under 50 scientists employed by Aurora, and we're working collaboratively with scientists all over the planet.

Let me tell you, there's a tsunami of scientific activities going on, no question about it, because all the preliminary results are very exciting. What all the scientists are working on, at different levels, is which particular cannabinoids, combined with what other cannabinoids or working individually, have an effect. We know that the terpenoids and probably the flavonoids in the cannabis plant are also contributing.

This information will unfold as the decades unfold ahead of us, but there is no question that nothing will stop this scientific activity from yielding very specific information for us to zero in on some of those particular strains and at the very least be able to match them. We're doing that with observational studies, with patient data, and trying to match. Our counsellors have this information, that certain people with migraines do better with this or that strain.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

We're going to have to hold you there. Mr. Samson has run out of time.

[Dr. Barry Waisglass]

Okay.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

We'll have to switch to Mrs. Wagantall now.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Thank you.

I appreciate all of your testimony. This issue is very important to me personally in working with our veterans, the question of how and when they should use this particular product.

I want to talk very briefly with you about mefloquine toxicity and whether you've had any involvement with that. It's an issue for all of our allies and for us, in that veterans were given this anti-malaria drug and it has caused issues. We found with many of our veterans that they found cannabis treatment to be very effective, whereas pharmaceuticals just seemed to complicate it because it's a brain stem injury, not PTSD, which it's often considered to be. Have you worked with any veterans who are suffering from this particular condition?

[Dr. Alan Shackelford]

I have not. I'm not familiar with the clinical presentation of it. Perhaps Dr. Waisglass can comment more on that. I have worked with veterans from the U.S. military forces who were given anthrax vaccine and had some significant reactions to that. A lot of them involved chronic pain. I haven't seen as many of those veterans as veterans who have PTSD, but those with pain from the anthrax vaccine, which included a lot of muscle spasms, responded quite well to cannabis.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Dr. Waisglass, have you worked at all with any mefloquine toxicity issues?

[Dr. Barry Waisglass]

I have not.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Okay. I just wanted to follow that up.

When it comes to the research that's going on and the discussion around its needing to be done, I was very pleased to hear, Dr. Shackelford, that you mentioned working with the University of Saskatchewan. I'm from Saskatchewan, and I'm very proud of our university. Along with the University of Regina, they're doing a great deal of work on service dogs and on a new study that is happening right now with regard to mefloquine.

I would be curious to know exactly what your involvement is and what they are working on. How important is that collaboration around the world in coming up with some of the answers we need, without all of us trying to do it on our own?

[Dr. Alan Shackelford]

It's extraordinarily important. CRIS, the Cannabinoid Research Initiative of Saskatchewan, is a couple of years old now. A symposium was held in August, at which I spoke. The basic science research that's being done in Saskatchewan, specifically in this program, is really extraordinary. A group was brought in from the Max Planck Institute in Germany. A Canadian—from Saskatoon, actually—who had been working there brought his entire team of 20 different researchers to Saskatoon to work on cannabis plant research. The professors are extraordinarily well trained.

There's a spirit of collaboration in cannabinoid research that is unusual, certainly in my experience, compared to other research initiatives. If we look at the collaboration or, if nothing else, simply at the communication among research institutions all around the world, be it in Israel, the U.S. or here in Canada, or even in places as diverse as the South American countries of Colombia and Uruguay, as Dr. Waisglass said, this is an area of inquiry that is absolutely moving forward at a breakneck pace. Innovations are going to be forthcoming that will be really quite remarkable.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Dr. Waisglass.

[Dr. Barry Waisglass]

I'm sorry, but because of volume issues I was unable to hear the first part of your question.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

I was asking for feedback on the involvement of other universities or organizations working on research. Specifically for me, the University of Saskatchewan in our province, a province of a million people plus a few, is doing phenomenal work in this area. I wondered if you had any collaboration or experience with studies and whatnot that those organizations have done or are working with.

[Dr. Barry Waisglass]

Aurora has several properties. One of them is CanniMed, which was the first of the licensed commercial producers. CanniMed is in our fold, so we work with the science people in that area too. Yes, we are collaborating with university centres and research centres in a number of provinces. I don't even have all of their addresses: the University of Alberta, UBC, the University of Toronto, McGill....

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Okay. That's great. Thank you.

Dr. Shackelford, our committee did a trip down to Washington, and we got to go to the Walter Reed hospital there. In one wing, if I remember correctly—you guys may correct me—they were working with patients who had severe trauma and were on strong pain treatment.

The goal there was to help them get to where they no longer had to have that level of pharmaceuticals, because obviously there are reactions. Are you aware whether in the States cannabis is being used in part of that process where you have those traumatic injuries and you need to get these individuals to where they can either go back and serve or join civilian life or whatever? Is it part of that process?

[Dr. Alan Shackelford]

It's not, in the U.S., as cannabis is considered to have no medical benefit or uses and a high abuse potential by the U.S. government. That's not to say that there's not a lot of interest, but the constraints that are placed on the veterans administration and the military establishment are so significant that nothing can be done, even though there is a great deal of interest.

Now, the veterans administration does not prohibit veterans from using cannabis medically in states where it's legal to do so, but neither the VA nor the defence department has an official program. I'll be frank. I think the United States can learn a great deal from Canada, not only in this regard, but in other ways as well, and certainly in this particular instance.

There is an opportunity here for Canada and Veterans Affairs to be pioneers, I think, in making a treatment available, as crude as it may now be, but also in investigating it and in setting up, as I've suggested, training programs for physicians, and possibly research programs that could be done in conjunction with the defence department or—

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Well, we're in a state of flux as well, because right now our treatment centres that veterans can go to do not allow them to come if they are using cannabis, so we have work to do there as well.

[Dr. Alan Shackelford]

Indeed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Thank you.

We'll end with Ms. Blaney.

[Rachel Blaney]

Thank you very much, Chair.

I want to get one thing clear. I've heard from both your testimonies that when veterans start using cannabis they are often able to go off many pharmaceuticals that have multiple impacts on their well-being. Is there research specifically on veterans moving off pharmaceuticals and moving toward cannabis and using that successfully? Also, are they tracking them over a period of time?

Could I start with you, Mr. Waisglass?

[Dr. Barry Waisglass]

We're not doing that. I specifically asked the people in our companies about tracking that information. It's not being done. It would be far better to construct a specific study in that regard to gather that information. I don't know of anybody who is doing that, but it has value. Everybody I've talked to has said that it would be valuable information.

I agree with you, but it's not being done.

[Rachel Blaney]

Thank you so much.

Dr. Shackelford.

[Dr. Alan Shackelford]

There is nothing in an official capacity in the U.S., but four years ago, the State of Colorado approved a bit over $2 million for a study of veterans and PTSD, using various cannabis profile plants. That study has completed most of its data-gathering.

We don't have enough information. Actually, I have very little that I can quote, but there is a study that is about to be completed on the treatment of PTSD with cannabis in the U.S. It's not official, however. This is one that we paid for from the state with state funds, but it is not a U.S. government-sanctioned study.

Israel is doing studies on the use of cannabis in veterans. One study in particular looked at therapeutic horseback riding, interestingly, with great benefit. They found that service members, veterans, who were engaged in horseback riding under a specific program and using cannabis were much more effectively combatting PTSD than those who were doing one or the other. The administrator of that program said that she had treated about 60 veterans as part of it and there had been no suicides, which is remarkable. Suicide is unfortunately the primary cause of death among Israeli soldiers.

[Rachel Blaney]

Thank you.

I believe that's my time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Yes.

We have a couple of housekeeping items. The analyst has asked for any scientific studies you've quoted and have. Could you send those to the clerk?