Evidence of meeting #116 for Veterans Affairs in the 42nd Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was symptoms.
A recording is available from Parliament.
As an Individual
I believe vincristine comes from periwinkle, that little blue flower that they discovered some years ago would be useful in cancer treatment. I don't know of any connection between vincristine and mefloquine, though.
Conservative
Phil McColeman Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
Okay, it's not part of that family of quinines that you're talking about. That's fair enough. It's described as a very toxic drug that kills all the good cells as well as helping kill the bad cells in that situation.
I know the word I was looking for earlier when I was feeling somewhat emotional about this. It's my outrage about the fact that we've got, right now, veterans who have had to go and join together and do a class action lawsuit against this government for not recognizing this and acknowledging this.
That's where my outrage exists when I listen to you, the experts, talk about the undeniable connections here of this drug to symptoms that you've seen, leading—which really just absolutely sends me over the edge—to permanent disability because they were forced to take a drug that has this kind of poison in it. That's where I was heading there.
I have just one last question. Is there any connection to seizure with this drug?
As an Individual
There are all kinds of neurological effects of the drug. We don't have good prevalence data, but we certainly have case reports. As a matter of fact, at our conference a young lady had a seizure, and I ended up calling the ambulance and going to the hospital with her. She was in the Peace Corps, not a veteran. Again, I don't want to give much identifying information, but her seizures had started after exposure to mefloquine.
Liberal
Bob Bratina Liberal Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON
I'm going to share with my friend.
Dr. Nevin, you made a statement that the Matchee incident and the closure, the disbandment of the airborne was a result of mefloquine, basically. Do you have real evidence that this is exactly the reason those things happened?
Executive Director, The Quinism Foundation
Yes. This committee, several years ago, heard, either in person or in written briefs, from at least two witnesses describing the symptoms that Clayton Matchee had been experiencing in the weeks prior to the killing of Shidane Arone. He had been actively hallucinating, having visual hallucinations of, for example, camel spiders in the bunker, in the moments before he killed Shidane Arone; of a fang-toothed monster at the foot of his bed, as he was home with his wife Marj in the weeks prior to the killing. This man was floridly psychotic in the days and weeks prior to the killing of Shidane Arone, and his psychosis almost certainly arose as a direct result of the misuse of mefloquine.
Liberal
Executive Director, The Quinism Foundation
I think that standard of proof is adequate for these purposes.
As an Individual
May I add a piece to it? One thing we use to distinguish schizophrenia from drug toxicity of a number of types is that schizophrenia tends to have hearing voices, auditory hallucinations, while mefloquine is marked by visual hallucinations, as are other hallucinogens. I think the relationship of seeing the visual hallucinations when somebody's on mefloquine...that seems very likely.
Liberal
Bob Bratina Liberal Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON
And “very likely” again...but we're not a scientific group here. Let me ask you what recommendation you think that our committee would be able to make, based on the science that exists on this issue, or should our recommendation be, perhaps, that more study is needed?
Executive Director, The Quinism Foundation
Our group, The Quinism Foundation, has made our recommendation to the Canadian government very clear—and we do represent Canadian veterans and Canadian constituents. In a press release published on September 19, 2018, we called on Veterans Affairs Canada to screen recent Canadian veterans for symptomatic mefloquine exposure. That is our recommendation. That is the single most effective thing we think can be done to improve the situation of Canadian mefloquine veterans. By implementing screening for symptomatic mefloquine exposure systematically, meaning as a result of some directive from the Minister of Veterans Affairs or some decision at VAC, this would serve as a tacit acknowledgement that the government recognizes this is a problem. It would permit clinicians to begin to identify those who may be suffering disability from this condition.
As an Individual
There are always more studies that can be done. People can set up a registry. That's been done in other settings. I wouldn't want the need for more studies to delay the public education that you were talking about earlier.
Liberal
Bob Bratina Liberal Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON
Well, we are educating, and thank you for the kind of testimony that you're bringing forward so we're all more aware of things than we were. What we ultimately need to know is the science. Exactly where is the science today on this?
Executive Director, The Quinism Foundation
In my opening statement I shared with you what your own government scientists have said is true. I shared with you the logical implications that follow from the science that they have acknowledged is true. I don't know how much more clear I can make this. Your own scientists are implying, as clear as day, through the updated product monograph language, that there must be some degree of permanent disability as a result of your military service members' use of mefloquine. It stands to reason. How can this not be?
Liberal
Bob Bratina Liberal Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON
Standing to reason is.... Well, anyway, thank you.
I have some time left. I think Borys wanted to ask a question.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
I'd like to follow on this line of questioning.
What sort of methodology would be required to do a definitive study, so there would be no questions?
Executive Director, The Quinism Foundation
There is no question that mefloquine use causes long-term, psychiatric and neurologic symptoms.
Now, there is a question of what percentage of individuals who took mefloquine correctly—meaning, they discontinued the drug at the first onset of any neurologic or psychiatric symptom—are disabled to some degree? How many have a psychiatric or neurologic diagnosis of some kind that we can attribute to mefloquine as a result of that correct use? Those are questions that can be asked and answered.
We should also ask the question of individuals who did not use mefloquine correctly, such as service members who were ordered to continue taking mefloquine even after they developed horrific nightmares, anxiety and depression. What percentage of those individuals are disabled to some degree as a result of those continued, persistent symptoms?
These are questions we can ask.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Those would be very helpful studies. You would agree.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
These are high-stress environments that we're sending our best into. You referenced—and it's acknowledged—that there's significant substance abuse in some of those environments. Have there been any studies looking a the correlation between alcohol, marijuana or other drugs, and mefloquine?
Executive Director, The Quinism Foundation
The simple answer is no. However, your question raises a broader point. If we are acknowledging that there is alcohol use in theatre and if we are acknowledging that there is some degree of recreational drug use in theatre—and I certainly hope that's not the case, very commonly—
Executive Director, The Quinism Foundation
Let's assume that we all recognize this, and let's assume, furthermore, that the Department of National Defence recognizes this. Let's suppose further that the Department of National Defence recognizes and acknowledges that symptoms such as insomnia, anxiety and depression will be not uncommon in operational environments.
Then the question that needs to be asked is: by what logic and reason can they justify the use of a drug whose safe use—or more accurately, whose safer use—requires that the drug be immediately discontinued at the onset of those symptoms?
I would propose that if we are arguing that those conditions exist in theatre—and they certainly do—then we really shouldn't be using mefloquine in that environment.
