Veterans Affairs Committee on May 12th, 2016

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Next we have Mr. Bratina.

[Bob Bratina, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Once again, thank you, everyone. These are very difficult things to listen to and understand. There is a lot of emotion involved, but of course we have to try to apply a sober second thought to see how we can actually make it work—understanding better now, as this committee certainly does, the issues that are facing veterans. Everybody here, and many we have heard from, is involved with peer-to-peer support. Is there anything that anyone could offer in terms of how we can apply the peer-to-peer model right into the veterans affairs committee?

Do we hire more case managers who are experienced military veterans? How do we get those knowing, understanding people Mr. Harris refers to into the system? Can someone offer an answer to that?

Mr. Blais, would you?

[Michael Blais]

Sure. We've spoken to two groups just now. They do not take money from the government. They're completely self-sufficient. It's the same with the Canadian Veterans Advocacy. We don't take money either.

In order to provide effective peer support, there has to be an infrastructure at some time. We can't just have guys like Matthew saying, “Oh, let's all meet here.” No, there has to be a method. For example, he just had a crisis in South America. I'm aware of this. They had to reach into their own pockets to rescue that guy. That's not acceptable. There should have been an alternative.

I also think that because of the vast number of peer support groups that are springing up across the nation, whether it be organized as OSISS, a combat brigade wellness level, or BC Veteran Well-being Network with Brian over here, there's no coordination. If the department were wise, it would reach out to these people here, bring them to Ottawa, which I think would be very valuable to you, have a good afternoon conversation with the president or a representative from each group, see what they're doing, and find protocols that apply to them all, so that when they have issues at their level where the municipal or provincial door is closed, they can reach out to the government. They can reach out to Veterans Affairs.

Veterans Affairs can have supplementary funds in order to rescue somebody from South America where he's gone adrift or to bring someone back into the fold if they're adrift in Canada. There are many veterans in Canada who are on the streets. We don't know who they are because they're not going to soup kitchens and so forth. They're young and resilient, but whether they go to a peer support group or reach out to us, we must have the infrastructure in place to provide that support.

Right now, a case manager or a client service agent can only go so far, and that's appropriate, but there needs to be another mechanism of control, coordination, and understanding on what these groups are individually doing and how we can bring their positive karma into a collective program.

[Bob Bratina, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Are you suggesting we formalize the relationship in some manner?

[Michael Blais]

Absolutely.

[Bob Bratina, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Mr. Harris?

Would anyone else like to comment on that?

[Dana Batho]

I know in Send Up the Count, we purposely stay apolitical. We have no problem doing this kind of thing. I speak for myself, not for the membership as a whole. Send Up the Count was formed specifically because people were getting lost in the system and didn't know where to go. I'm the one in charge of maintaining this massive resources document. It has VAC and JPSU numbers, everything across Canada, and even some international stuff. There's obviously a big gap in terms of people not knowing where to go and how to access things.

The only issue with having more of a formal organization is that things may end up becoming more politicized and so on, which I know a lot of the peer support groups are very against, because it just makes people angry. When you're in a situation of putting your group or your mandate into somebody else's hands, it brings in too much that you can't control.

I think there definitely needs to be more coordination between the groups. The CBG support groups sort of spun out of Send Up the Count and became more localized groups to help people with boots on the ground, basically when somebody is having a massive issue and needs somebody to go to his or her house right away. There is a line between supporting people and the political aspect. Most of the groups want to stay away from the money and they want to stay away from being seen as politicized.

[Bob Bratina, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Perhaps, for instance, groups like this, if they were recognized in a formal way, would have hotline access or some way of expediting the issues that you're dealing with.

Mr. Harris, would you like to comment on that?

[Sgt Matthew Harris]

I'm not sure if formalizing us would be something that I'm ready to think about. We do talk to each other. We have messages that pop up on our phones. We keep our phones on at night. Mostly we guide people to the numbers that already exist. These numbers help already.

A flood of too many phone numbers and too many things, and people vying for control over who does what and who helps whom, I don't think would be something that our group would necessarily do. I think we would guide them to those numbers because we know. Some of us know more about thing A than thing B, so we would talk to each other and figure out the best way to go.

[Bob Bratina, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

That's a fair comment.

[Sgt Matthew Harris]

Does that make sense?

[Bob Bratina, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Yes, it does make sense. However, just to finish, we're gaining so much valuable information from the peer-to-peer groups that we don't want to lose that after a few minutes of discussion in a committee such as this. Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Mr. Kitchen—

[Kimberly Davis]

If I could just quickly comment on bringing these peer-to-peer support groups under Veterans Affairs...?

[Bob Bratina, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Yes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Twenty seconds would be good.

[Kimberly Davis]

One of the largest issues facing veterans right now is their distrust of VAC. If you bring these peer-to-peer support groups that are online right now doing wonderful things under an umbrella that they already distrust, you are going to shut them down. They are not going to be there. New ones will pop up again.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Thank you.

[Kimberly Davis]

They have trust in these organizations.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Thank you for that comment.

Mr. Kitchen, you have six minutes.

[Robert Gordon Kitchen, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you all for being here today. I want to thank you for enlightening us and educating us on many issues.

I also want to thank you all for your service. When I say “all”, I mean families. Coming from a military family, I truly understand that families, although they aren't on the payroll, serve and go through a lot of the same trials and tribulations. We have heard that from many of you today, and from people before.

Dana, I am just going to ask you something quickly. You mentioned how, when people access mental health, it means they are at the end of their rope. I believe that is true. A lot of times, until they recognize that they are having mental health issues, they aren't going to get there. When they finally recognize it, it is too late.

Can you give us some information, especially.... I am not the most social-media inclined, but I know Facebook, Twitter, and those sorts of things, and your group is involved in that. Is there a lot, or any, discussion there about the OSI clinics? And are you aware of them? Do you know where they are? Do people talk about that and how accessible they are?

[Dana Batho]

Yes, I can speak about that with some specificity, because I am going through it myself.

In the Send Up the Count group, we do talk about the OSI clinics and the OSISS groups. We do have numbers and contact information for all of that in the big document I was referring to.

Personally, I was referred to the OSI clinic in Vancouver and to the OSISS group last November, when I called my case manager and asked for help.

As you have heard, it is quite common for military members not to want to ask for help until they really are aware that they need help, and that is where the social support groups come into play, because they can tell you, “Yeah, you need to go ask for some help now. Go call somebody.”

When I called Veterans Affairs and said to my case manager, “I really need some help. I am having a really hard time”, because I wasn't.... Even now, my care is really not that coordinated. You basically get released, and there is no doctor or appointment set up. There is nothing set up. You have to do it all yourself. With the lack of doctors in the area, it is really difficult.

The problem with the referrals from VAC is that you get referred to the OSI clinic and.... I phoned in November, and I got to the OSI clinic at the end of March. That is a really long time to wait just for an assessment. Then it takes them three to four weeks to send that assessment to VAC to process. Only now are things starting to go into place. On Monday, I have an appointment with my doctor so that she can refer me to a counsellor.

I still haven't seen a counsellor. I know nothing about the support group, the OSISS group, that I was supposedly referred to. I don't know whether I am supposed to contact them or VAC is supposed to contact them. I was told I was referred to them. I don't know how any of that works.

I have been literally months without any kind of treatment or help. Even though I have kind of gone through the system, I am still not getting any actual help. That is where a lot of people seem to find themselves as they reach out for help. There are such delays between things happening, such as the time it takes to get a referral from this person to that person or the recommendations from the OSI clinic to VAC and to your doctor and all that. The trickle-down takes a very long time, and nothing is really explained to you, such as how the connection between the OSI clinic and the OSISS group works, how you can contact those people, and what kind of support they offer.

I mean, you know a little bit about it from your time serving—they tell you a little bit—but you don't really know much in practice. Especially if you are not doing so well and you are actually asking for help, you are probably not remembering a lot of what you learned previously anyway.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Do you have another question?

[Robert Gordon Kitchen, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

We have heard a lot of that throughout the testimony, about people not knowing what they can access and when. When they hear about it, it is often past the fact.

Mr. Harris, thank you very much for your comments about “suck it up”. I grew up in a family where my dad told me that every day. It is true. How do you go through it? It is very tough, as you say. How do we do that in the military and recognize what we need our military for and how we have to look at the other service aspects of it?

You mentioned case managers for children. I am wondering if you can expand on that a bit more. What were you thinking along those lines?

[Sgt Matthew Harris]

When I was talking to him and to his mother, I asked him if he had a case manager. He asked what that was and said he didn't have anything like that. I asked if he called Veterans Affairs Canada, and he said that he called them about his bursary for schooling, which they had included as some kind of income for him. He said they would put him on hold, pass him to somebody else, and so on. That made me quickly realize that if something happens to me, my wife doesn't have a Veterans Affairs number. She's a civilian. She can't do anything unless I tell her to or ask for it, or unless she comes at me and asks for it.

This kid's father is dead. The veteran is dead, so who is he going to call? I don't think he has a Veterans Affairs number, or if he does, he doesn't know he does. His father died in 2009. He was just a kid. He doesn't know what to do. He should have the number. They all should.