Veterans Affairs Committee on May 12th, 2016

[Robert Gordon Kitchen, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Right. We need to provide some help—

[Sgt Matthew Harris]

Of course, yes. It's not just me. There are a few of us who do.

Sorry.

[Robert Gordon Kitchen, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Okay. I appreciate that.

Some of the talk we've heard throughout our discussions has been about setting things up right from the moment people enlist in the armed forces and getting their numbers, access, and information stage by stage as they progress through the ranks continuously from day one, as opposed to six months before they're told that they're out. Can anyone comment on that and on where you see...? By giving the numbers there and having those numbers follow on from the military to VAC, as well as having those numbers and case managers for families—

[Sgt Matthew Harris]

No. The actual number changes. We have a service number when we join the military, and for some reason when we go into VAC we have a different number. I'm not quite sure why that is. Maybe keeping the same number would make it pretty easy to remember. Then the kids and the family could have a separate number. Maybe my entire family could have a support number.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

We'll move on to Mr. Fraser. Are you splitting your time still?

[Colin Fraser, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

Yes, I'll be sharing my time with Ms. Lockhart.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Okay.

[Colin Fraser, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

Thank you all very much for attending today and sharing your experiences with us to help us gain insight as a committee so that we can make proper recommendations. I want you to know that we are listening and we very much appreciate your appearance and the work you have been doing.

I'd like first to ask a question of Mr. Blais. I appreciate your comments, especially with regard to the importance of case managers being proactive, such that it is not the obligation of the veteran to seek out what he or she might be able to find out but rather the obligation of Veterans Affairs Canada to ensure that they are made aware and are given every opportunity to take advantage of the services to which they are certainly entitled.

It's not just about case managers. Certainly increasing the number of case managers, as you say, and dropping the ratio to 25:1, as the current government has done, will be important, but what will be really important is ensuring that the level of service goes up commensurate with those extra case workers.

You talked about the possibility of extra training for case managers. I wonder if you could expand on that to help us understand what kind of training you're thinking about. There are probably opportunities for case managers to refer a veteran to some expert, but maybe that should be kept with the case manager so they can build a relationship of trust with the veteran. I wonder if you could expand on what kind of training you're thinking about.

[Michael Blais]

Absolutely. The situation now is a result of the rapid influx of new employees. They're being peer-trained, as they call it. You'll be assigned to a CSA or a case manager, and they will train you. I think that's okay in the sense of on-the-job training, but I also believe that there must be formal training. The protocols and documents of Veterans Affairs Canada are way too complicated to be passed on to another person while they're serving a client.

It's okay. Don't get me wrong. We have to do what we have to do in order to get these people online quickly, but I believe personally that there must be a dedicated training format for Veterans Affairs Canada. I have listened to half the problems that have been identified, some serious, that would have been resolved or negated had there been proactive engagement by their CSA or case manager.

We have to identify veterans in need. This is another thing. Not everyone needs that level of care, but there are those who need that reassurance on a monthly basis, those who have sustained mental wounds and whose wives are bearing the brunt and trying to deal with the enormity of the situation by themselves.

We have issues, and proactive engagement could resolve some of them, but unless these case managers and CSAs are completely trained, sometimes proactive engagement is counterproductive.

Suppose you get someone who is untrained. She tells Kimberly, “Okay, we're going to do this.” Then it goes up the chain. “Oh, you made a mistake. We can't do that.” Maybe she tells someone they have x amount of physiotherapy or massage therapy. Then it's, “Oh, you're 18 over. We can't do that.” A lot of these issues can be resolved through dialogue and proactive engagement by the department.

It extends to peer support too. I'm not saying to bring these guys in formally, because Kimberly has a brilliant point there, but you should know and the department should know when they have an issue and they don't have boots on the ground, with Send Up the Count, they do. At a brigade level, they do. At Kimberly's level for caregivers, they do. We must have that connection, formal or informal. When a case manager gets an emergency call when she or he is frustrated or does not have that resource, they may be able to step in and save that person's life.

I think it's vital that the training be brought up to a level where every case manager and every CSA is completely familiar with the book—which is yay thick, by the way.

[Colin Fraser, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Ms. Lockhart is next.

[Alaina Lockhart, Liberal, Fundy Royal, NB]

Thank you.

I'd just like to point out that you've all formed groups to support veterans, and we certainly appreciate that. Clearly, it's because of a need.

I only have a couple of minutes, so could you each tell me quickly what the most common gap is that you see?

[Dana Batho]

For Send Up the Count, it's people not knowing how to access resources and not knowing what resources are available. By the time they come to our group and start asking for help, they're usually in pretty dire straits. They don't have anybody they trust to talk to about this. That's the main issue with Send Up the Count. They don't know who to trust and they don't know where to go.

[Kimberly Davis]

One of the largest issues we have is that once the paperwork's in, it's not getting processed or it's getting bounced back. We have veterans and their families going to specialists. These specialists have umpteen years in their field, yet their reports are being negated. They're being dismissed as, “Oh, well, they don't know what they're talking about.”

How can a veteran get through the system when, as my husband's orthodontist said, they hit a brick wall because you're not listening to these specialists? They have the experience and the education, yet they're being negated by the system. They're being negated through their first application, their second application, and the Veterans Review and Appeal Board. They're being negated and dismissed. They're told, “Oh, well, that's not related to your service”, yet they have a specialist who says that it is.

Why are we hitting these brick walls? That's the issue we keep hitting.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Mr. Clarke, you're up for five minutes.

[Alupa Clarke, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon, everyone. Thank you for joining us today. I am very grateful.

I know every time the fact that you have to repeat your story is extremely difficult, and we're fully aware of that.

As usual, I have dozens of questions. I had to choose the most important, or I think they are, and it's a brainstorm.

First, for Mr. Harris, this may be more a technical question. You say in your text that you want to save those who have fallen through the cracks. Could you share with us, if you know it, what the common issues or scenarios are of the members who you consider have fallen through the cracks? Is there a common theme?

[Sgt Matthew Harris]

Yes, actually, there is.

Guys come back from Afghanistan and want to get out of the military for whatever reason. They want to move on with their lives or they want to do whatever. It's not necessarily because they're frustrated with any particular thing, but they get out. They come home from Afghanistan, and they might have been in the army for a total of five years as a reservist, so there's no JPSU thing and there's no transition. It's just “I hand in my stuff and I'm done.” It's over. Then they go off and they try to become a firefighter somewhere else in another town.

Inevitably, a lot of them start to miss it, right, or we miss them. We don't know where they went. One day he's my corporal in my section; then two weeks go by, and the next thing I know, he's out. He's gone. I know that he was in Afghanistan the year before, and I don't know where he went. I'm getting asked by my chain of command where so-and-so is, and I don't know. I don't know where he went. This is how we.... The crack is that that if this guy goes out and does something or hurts himself or needs help, maybe he feels like he can't ask, because he has no idea of where to go.

We try to touch base with him and with others. Every once in a while, I'll ask how he's doing, where's he going, and if he needs help with anything. Sure enough, a lot of times, after a year goes by, they have some mental health issues that they thought they were handling, but it's becoming frustrating. They don't know who to talk to, so we inevitably bring them back into our fold, into our little group here, and then we guide them through VAC or through any organization, the Legion or whatever. We try to help them out wherever they are. That's our biggest one.

[Alupa Clarke, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Mr. Harris, you seem to be saying that's for the reservists. What about the cracks for the regulars?

[Sgt Matthew Harris]

I don't know. I'm not a regular force member—never have been.

[Alupa Clarke, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Okay. I see. Thank you.

[Sgt Matthew Harris]

I don't want to speak for them.

[Alupa Clarke, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Mr. Blais—

[Sgt Matthew Harris]

Wait, you know what? I'm sorry. I shouldn't say that. We have some members of the regular force that retire to our area. Maybe they were in Petawawa or Shilo. They retire to our area, and inevitably we find them, and they're having issues that they didn't want to speak about while they were in, or now they're they're helping us because they have other ideas. Not everybody needs help. Some people just want to help. I think that's fantastic.

[Alupa Clarke, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Okay.

I understand that Madam Kimberly wants to speak, but I really have a question for Mr. Blais.

[Michael Blais]

I'll be quick.