Veterans Affairs Committee on May 19th, 2016

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

I call the meeting to order.

Good morning, everybody. I'd like to start the meeting.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted on February 25, 2016, the committee resumes its study on service delivery to veterans. At the end of the meeting we'll go in camera to discuss future business.

As witnesses today, we have the Aboriginal Veterans Autochtones, Robert Thibeau, president; the Korea Veterans Association of Canada, Bill Black, president, Unit 7; and by video conference from Calgary, Donald Leonardo, national president of Veterans Canada.

Each organization will be given 10 minutes to make an opening statement; then we'll proceed to questions and answers. Because of the video conference, can we direct our questions specifically to Robert, Bill, or Donald?

Let's start with the national president of Veterans Canada, Donald Leonardo.

Welcome.

[Donald Leonardo, National President, Veterans Canada]

Thank you very much for this invitation to speak to the ACVA committee on service delivery.

I'd also like to say hello to my colleagues and friends in the room.

The study on delivery of service to veterans suggested questions, so I polled the 8,000 members of Veterans Canada on three of these questions. I'll go over those polling results.

The first question that we submitted to the membership was as follows:

According to your organization and the veterans you represent, would you say that wait times for decisions have been reduced? If so, can you provide concrete examples or evidence in this respect?

Ninety-seven members responded to this question, and 90% of them said no.

I'll give you some of the live quotes that came from them. Here is one: “The answer would be a definite no.”

I can only refer to the veterans I personally have served with in my own case, which was a year or more ago.

The second quote was, “I can only speak about the apparent policy of Veterans Affairs to refuse claims outright, then hope that the person claiming will give up and go away. I'm presently in my fifth month of wrangling for medical benefits and see no clear end in sight.”

These are the responses from that first question.

I'll go on to the second question of that part, which was as follows:

Given that the primary reason for processing delays is incomplete applications, are you aware of any new initiatives to help veterans ensure their applications are complete?

One hundred and two people responded, and again 90% said no.

Here are a couple of the answers to that question.

One reads “I believe the staffers in offices often take the easiest route by returning files deemed incomplete, even though sufficient information was provided by the applicant to answer or act on the request.”

The second says, “I asked the advocate for help in filling out the application because I'm not competent in representing my medical situation. I told her I knew a doctor who is, but was denied permission to negotiate with him for his expertise. I feel as a result my claim will be negatively affected.”

Again, my response to this is that there appear to still be problems with incomplete applications, and as I have stated before, assistance used to be provided by the Bureau of Pension Advocates.

My suggestion once again is to return to the pre-1996 practice and have them hire full-time veterans to assist with applications once again. Please remove the Legion from access to back files, since we recently learned that that has been a problem. The Legion can still provide their service without accessing back files.

I'll go on to the next question, which was as follows:

Since delays can also be related to the transfer of medical records between the Department of National Defence and Veterans Affairs Canada, are you aware of any changes in the way these transfers occur?

One hundred members responded. Ninety per cent said no or that it was not applicable after release.

Here is one of the answers: “In my opinion, DND is prompt and efficient in forwarding retiree files. Time is lost when DVA delays assigning staff to review the file once received. DND should also transfer its existing clients' VAC files to both VAC and the veteran automatically, so those that have already released from DND and their files haven't been transferred, both should be automatically transferred.”

Now I'll go on to the next question, which was as follows:

Have you witnessed improvements in the way veterans with complex needs can interact with their case manager?

There were 102 responses, and 90% said no.

Here is one answer: “No. I was informed by the caseworker that she had done everything she could for me and would therefore no longer handle my case. Veterans Canada members have noticed that they have lost their case managers in the last few months to veterans service agents, even though they have complex needs and injuries.”

The second part of that question reads:

For veterans whose needs are not sufficiently complex to warrant the involvement of a case manager, do you think that the number of veterans' service agents, and their competence, is sufficient?

There were 108 responses, of which 90% said no and 10% said yes.

I'll go on to a quote from that one: “No, veterans service agents do not have enough training or understanding to help a veteran.”

Here's a second quote: “The service agents that I have encountered fill out the forms and process paper. There is no consultation on probability factors, questions, and otherwise any discussions with the veteran. There appears to be two standards and two classes of veterans.”

Do I still have time, Mr. Chairman?

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Keep going. You have lots of time, Donald.

[Donald Leonardo]

Okay. The next question is:

How do veterans evaluate the services provided in the operational stress injuries clinics setup by Veterans Affairs Canada?

There were 96 responses from our membership, of which 40% said they didn't know.

The quote was “I have never been asked to evaluate OSI set up by VAC. I've been in treatment now for more than nine years and only have been treated follow-up by the OSI doctor since October 2015.”

Many members of Veterans Canada at the OSI clinics across the country have been referred to family doctors after a two-year period. This makes the stats for the OSI clinics look good when patients are let go right after the two-year treatment period. They therefore have to fend for their own medications and treatments with their family doctors. If they relapse after the first two years, many find doctors who will prescribe medical marijuana, or else they find their own therapy through psychologists.

The next question is:

Do you think that family members of veterans suffering from mental health problems should receive psychological and financial support from Veterans Affairs Canada?

There were 115 responses, of which 93% said yes.

Here is a quote from members: “Yes. PTSD does have a toll on spouses and children like second-hand smoking.”

Here is another quote: “If the families have to provide comfort and support for their family members, I believe they should receive psychological and family support. If the individual was in an institution, their support would be paid for and the staff trained, so why not for the individual who lives with family?”

My response is that the last quote says it all.

Now, how long are we going to talk about this before we act on these replies? I believe this was in the 2008 new Veterans Charter advisory group's recommendations.

I thank you for this opportunity to speak, Mr. Chairman. Although we've been doing these committees, these reviews, and these studies for the last 10 years—not to mention all the reports that have been written—there probably haven't been more than five or ten recommendations in that time that have been put through. I hope this doesn't go unheard this time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Thank you.

What we're going to do now is switch to Mr. Thibeau and Mr. Black, and then we'll come back for questions.

Mr. Black or Mr. Thibeau, the floor is open.

[Robert Thibeau, President, Aboriginal Veterans Autochtones]

Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, good morning.

I wish to acknowledge that we meet today on Algonquin territory, land that has never been ceded or surrendered. I think the Algonquin nation for the privilege to meet here to speak to all of our warrior veterans, both aboriginal and non-aboriginal. I wish to also acknowledge a personal friend and comrade, Mr. Bill Black, a Korean veteran well respected in the veterans community.

As president of the Aboriginal Veterans Autochtones, I once again appear here to represent the aboriginal veterans from my organization as well as veterans from the Congress of Aboriginal Peoples. I take my responsibility very seriously and thank the committee members for allowing me once again to speak on veterans' issues.

I'm here to discuss the delivery of services for veterans. I will speak only on matters that I feel need to be addressed, only on issues that need to be mentioned on behalf of aboriginal veterans from coast to coast to coast. We do not wish to be classed only as veterans. Rather, we take pride in our service to Canada and our service with all Canadian veterans. With them we stand united.

A decade ago, Veterans Affairs introduced the veterans transition action plan, which was designed to assist veterans leaving the Canadian Armed Forces and moving into civilian life. This plan has certainly had its challenges, but for the most part it has provided the help veterans needed to transition out of the Canadian Armed Forces.

Many veterans moved smoothly through the programs and received the entitlements and benefits. There were some, though, who faced obstacles. The delay of services or benefits may well have been concentrated in the transfer of medical documents between the Department of National Defence and Veterans Affairs Canada. I am not aware if this problem has been rectified, but I know that coordination and effective communication between release sections and Veterans Affairs caseworkers will certainly help to alleviate any problems.

Veterans Affairs announced recently that it will be hiring enough new caseworkers to reduce the caseworker-to-client ratio to 25:1. This could be a positive factor in improving wait times and document transfers.

The closing of offices by the previous government had an adverse effect on some of our aboriginal veterans, notably those in the Saskatoon area. This was the only office that was reasonably close to our first nations or to rural communities where Métis lived as well, although in some cases the drive to get to that location was four hours. When the office closed, veterans were forced to deal with Veterans Affairs online—if they had that capability—or by phone. With the reopening of this office, we hope that caseworkers will also be required to visit face to face for consultations.

I would add that the vast majority of veterans in Canada did not support the move to Service Canada for veterans' services. The main reason was that the person on the phone was not conversant with our policies and procedures, nor did they understand the scope of any of the veterans' issues.

On the issue of reaching out to less populated areas—our remote first nations, rural communities, and communities in the north—in the four years I've been involved with this committee, I haven't seen much movement on the key issues put forward by my organization, by the Legion, or by other veterans' groups.

For example, I advocated for veterans in our rural and isolated communities, communicating with them on benefits and entitlements. I explained that the technology enjoyed by mainstream Canadians is not necessarily the norm in remote communities and that we needed to develop a better plan to deal with the issues. I was happy to hear last week at the minister's summit that there is apparently a plan to answer the communication problems in the north. Although we did not hear specifics, it would appear that somebody has put it on the table, and my hope is that there will be no delays in the implementation of this plan, which has to include face-to-face consultation.

When we speak of post-traumatic stress disorder and mental health in general, I believe that OSISS offices across the country are in most cases meeting the needs of those veterans who have sought help. I can only hope more injured service personnel take advantage of these offices.

Families of veterans who are suffering must be included in the treatment of the veteran, because they are the ones closest to the veteran and are also affected by that injury. Our aboriginal communities see post-traumatic stress disorder, and those affected by it, as being disconnected from mother earth. The warrior needs to be reconnected, and our ceremonies such as sweat lodges help our wounded warriors to cope and to and move on down the path of healing to deal with those demons and eventually reconnect with mother earth, their families, their friends, and all relations.

The vocational rehabilitation program appears to have a great deal of positive components to assist not only the veteran but also the families of veterans, depending on the degree of injury. It is not reasonable to have a policy that must be activated after release within two years of that release date. Veterans need to be healed before they can do any type of vocational rehab, or any type of program, or even apply for it. You must take into account that with some of the more severe cases, be they physical or mental injuries or a combination of the two, it may be wise to consider interaction with caseworkers, health care professionals, and others involved directly with the veteran and the veteran's family to decide if and when rehabilitation is practical. It may very well be longer than the current two-year policy.

Veterans within my organization living in Quebec, as well as other veterans' groups, were disappointed to see that the Ste. Anne's Hospital was transferred to provincial control. The so-called traditional veterans are few in number, and the government feels it's time to change the way it deals with veterans seeking long-term care. There will be no veteran-specific floors in the provinces, and the fear is that obtaining space in the provincial system will be slow at best and that veterans will be treated like other people seeking the same type of care.

The department must remember that we still have veterans and that facilities for long-term care should be available for veterans, at least as a first option. It may be felt that at this time the need may not be critical, but the future will see veterans counting on these facilities to be there when they feel the need. There may very well be a tidal wave of veterans coming near the time they will require long-term care facilities. How will the government cope with this reality when that time comes?

Effective communication is the cornerstone to ensure success. If you can communicate your message to everyone, and it is understood, then you have achieved the first and most important step in providing care to veterans.

I recently sat with two retired chief warrant officers, with a combined service of approximately 65 years of regular force service. Their response to communicating with service personnel was to go through the leadership that is already there in the Canadian Armed Forces.

One of their suggestions was—of course, being chief warrant officers they would use this one—that if Veterans Affairs Canada wants to ensure information regarding benefits and programs are available, chair a base chief warrant officers' conference once a year for three to five days and give them the information on all of the programs and benefits and entitlements that Canadian Armed Forces members may be entitled to once they move from the military. Then have those chief warrant officers, when they go back to those bases, deliver or disseminate the information to the units within their base structure.

I am quite sure there are other ways to do this, but as a soldier and as a leader of soldiers, I was responsible for the welfare for those under my command. Leaders will always look after their soldiers, and that includes communication.

Mr. Chairman, committee members, and fellow veterans, thank you. Meegwetch, marsi, merci, qujannamiik, all my relations.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Thank you.

Next, from the Korean Veterans Association of Canada, is Mr. Black, president, Unit 7.

[Bill Black, President, Unit 7, Korea Veterans Association of Canada]

My name is Bill Black. I'm 82 years old, and our battles were 65 years ago.

We have a different statement to make. We probably live in an isolated world because of our age, which is close to that of the Second World War veterans.

Ladies and gentlemen, 30 years ago, the chartered Korea Veterans Association of Canada, or KVA, held a total membership of approximately 4,000 to 5,000 veterans from coast to coast, comprising 55 units. We were well represented across Canada. That's an average of nearly 100 men per unit. However, Ottawa Unit 7 was the largest in Canada, with a strong membership of over 400 Korean War veterans.

I was advised some time ago by the Embassy of the Republic of Korea that Ottawa's is the largest unit in the world, notwithstanding that there were 21 countries involved in the Korean War, 16 of which sent combat troops. Unit 7 is now reduced to 190. That includes the 38 Korea veterans in the Perley and Rideau Veterans' Health Centre. They are being well cared for.

Overall, the KVA of Canada is now at a low of just over 1,000 members and is diminishing rapidly every year. For example, within our unit, there are only approximately 50 members who are still active. We're all in our eighties and nineties. Many are in retirement homes, and those still in their own homes don't travel too far anymore.

Recently I reached out to some of our units and individuals within our Ottawa unit and received feedback on this question: “Describe how well you are being treated by Veterans Affairs Canada”. Everyone's answer was nearly identical, such as, for example: “No complaints”; “More than I expected”; “We're being well cared for”; and, “If it were not for VAC, I'd be on the street.”

I posed the question about the local offices being closed. In Ottawa, that has not adversely affected our members; however, our unit has several members in the Chatham area who initially voiced concern about having to travel to Windsor for treatment. However, VAC is taking care of transportation and pocket expenses for them, so no complaint was registered.

With regard to disability pensions and VIP assistance, they are often mentioned in terms of expressing appreciation. Many have been vocal in saying how much consideration has been given towards helping Korea veterans who now suffer from a myriad of health problems, such as PTSD, alcoholism, heart failure, various cancers, lung disease, asbestosis, arthritis, hearing loss, etc. Feedback indicates that, for whatever reason, VAC seems to have excelled in putting forth a great deal of compassion in providing meaningful assistance to Korea veterans.

Although the care aspect seems to be on the favourable side for the octogenarians in our association of veterans, I do not have any idea of the condition of the remainder of Korean War veterans or how they are managing. It is estimated that there are 7,000 or 8,000 Canadian Korean War veterans who have remained distant, insofar as never having joined the Royal Canadian Legion or any veterans organization. To my knowledge, there are no stats for us to use to draw any conclusion regarding their well-being or the accuracy of their numbers.

One more point I'd like to mention is the downsizing of the Canada Remembers directive in Ottawa. It is certainly gratifying to have the partnership deal with our veterans and Veterans Affairs Canada. However, it has become somewhat burdensome now to have our very senior veterans thrust into the business of negotiating, contracting, and purchasing, etc., to accommodate for parades, services, and various other requirements that formerly were accomplished by the Canada Remembers team. Perhaps VAC is thinking of the future and perhaps advancing a little too rapidly in getting prepared for when the inevitable occurs.

Even though the Korean War was often called “the forgotten war”, I believe Veterans Affairs Canada has done a colossal job in its care of our men and their families.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Thank you.

We'll start our questioning with six-minute rounds, and Mr. Clarke will be first.

[Alupa Clarke, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Leonardo, it's a pleasure to meet you. I have read many of your articles and heard a lot about you.

You talked about the fact that there are two classes of veterans. Could you please explain what you meant when you say that?

[Donald Leonardo]

I say there are two classes of veterans, and you just heard the differences. There are those who come under the old Veterans Charter and those who come under the New Veterans Charter. Then there is a third class of veterans who are under a little bit of each.

We're doing a study here on delivery of services to veterans. For the past 100 years, if you go back in history, there have always been problems in delivering services to veterans with a magnitude of programs all across the board, so I'll give you a new idea today: let's change the way we give services to veterans. Let's talk about going out to the veterans, finding their needs and meeting them.

There are four different needs. One is the transitioning; the second is treatment; the third is rehabilitation; and last, if they're not able to be rehabilitated, they need lifelong support.

Let's go out to the veterans to find their needs. Their needs will be financial, their needs will be family, and their needs will be spiritual. Instead of a magnitude of programs, let's cater the programs to each veteran and let's save money overall, because there are so many programs that are running and so many bureaucrats working to run those programs. All you need to do is find the need and meet it.

[Alupa Clarke, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Mr. Leonardo, I understand you made a series of surveys and you had a series of answers.

According to the law, I am a veteran myself. I was released from the army a few months ago, and three days ago I received a letter from VAC informing me of my rights and telling me they want to meet me in Quebec City—that's where I'm living—to inform me of the benefits and whatever I can receive.

I think that's a new approach. Have any of your recent members spoken to you about that? I mean, is this working? Do you think it's good?

[Donald Leonardo]

Many of our members are already retired and many are already considered disabled, so they have been dealing with Veterans Affairs for a year, two years, three years, or ten years, since the new Veterans Charter and beyond.

I'm very glad that they contacted the Conservative critic, who is also a veteran. Finally, after all these years—

[Alupa Clarke, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

I was also wondering if there was a connection, yes, but let's be....

[Donald Leonardo]

It would be nice if the service was the same for everybody, sir.

[Alupa Clarke, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Seriously, I have a doubt about that. Maybe there is a reason.

Mr. Black, throughout your testimony I found your analysis overall to be positive toward the benefits and services given by VAC.

First of all, thank you for being here. You're the first second-generation veteran we have received before this new committee since the last election, and it's the first time I have heard something positive concerning VAC. How do you explain this gap between your experience and the experience of your mates of your generation and what the Afghanistan veterans of modern warfare and of the nineties have experienced?

[Bill Black]

I think that the Korean veterans, who still come under the old pension charter, benefit very much by that. Also, belonging to an association like the Korea Veterans Association of Canada has brought in a wealth of information regarding dealing with Veterans Affairs Canada.

Does that answer your question?

[Alupa Clarke, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Yes. It seems apparent that it's better to be under the old system.

[Bill Black]

Of course.

Our Korea veterans have noticed a difference. Several years ago I attended Parliament. I think General Hillier was Chief of the Defence Staff, and there was a presentation on the new charter, or the change. I said at the time that you might be doing a disservice to veterans by changing that. You're going to have two or perhaps even three classifications of veterans: Second World War, Korea, and afterward.

[Alupa Clarke, Conservative, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Why do you think they changed the system in 2005, in December, when the charter came about? What were the problems that they tried to answer with the new charter?

[Bill Black]

The problem with the new charter is that the disability pensions would disappear, the life pensions would disappear. When I was told that if you died, your next of kin—I guess your mother or your wife or whoever you had on your will—would receive $250,000, I thought, “There's the money; go away and don't bother us anymore.” That's the impression our Korea veterans had of what was going to occur. Notwithstanding the fact that Parliament decided that we'd look after them healthwise for the rest of their lives, that health—or rather, disability—benefit was going to disappear.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Thank you.

Mr. Fraser is next.

[Colin Fraser, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

Yes. Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, gentlemen, for appearing before our committee today and sharing your thoughts in a very helpful way. I know that it's not the first time you've appeared before our committee. In fact, you've been here a number of times to tell various committees your story. I'm telling you that we're listening and we hear you and I'm very grateful for your attendance today.

Mr. Thibeau, sir, you mentioned hiring more caseworkers and the ratio going down to 25:1. You've said that could be a positive factor on services and wait times, certainly for individuals living in rural or remote areas. Could you explain what you mean by “could be a positive factor” and what concerns you have that might not be addressed, even though there are more people being hired?

[Robert Thibeau]

“Could be” is if you hire the right people, number one, and the training that those individuals will receive.

When you're going to a remote community that is a first nations, Métis, or Inuit community, you also have to understand that you're entering another culture. As veterans, we're a culture of our own; however, there is a unique culture that existed prior to my becoming a part of the veteran family. There is a unique culture in some communities that you have to respect and you have to understand.

It's the same thing that our recruiters do in the Canadian military. They have to take aboriginal awareness training in order to deal with people appropriately and understand the significant differences and uniqueness of some of the communities that they go into.

[Colin Fraser, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

Would it make sense, Mr. Thibeau, to have indigenous people hired to deal with those situations who may have special sensitivity and understanding of the cultural background?