Veterans Affairs Committee on Oct. 27th, 2016

[Colin Fraser, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

Okay, thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Ms. Jolibois.

[Georgina Jolibois, NDP, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

I'd like to thank you for all your stories, Claude, Dave, Brandon, and John. We really appreciate the stories.

What I'm about to ask is going to be painful. I'm going to direct it at John. Corporal Matchee and Kyle Brown, what are their stories?

[John Dowe]

Regarding Master Corporal Clayton Matchee, as far as my eyewitness goes to the events of that night, yes, I was not on duty but was on my way by the bunker. Shidane Arone was the prisoner in the bunker. I guess he had been captured. I hadn't noticed him on the way through the compound. I was on my way to use the satellite telephone to call home.

On the return from making that satellite transmission home—we were allotted a five- to ten-minute phone call once a week —I re-entered the compound. Adjacent to the entrance to the compound is the bunker where they would keep the prisoners prior to processing and sending them down the next day or two to the jail that we had helped set up. On my return to the compound, Master Corporal Matchee had seen me, because the bunker is quite close to the front gate, and he had called me over. He said, “Hey, we have a prisoner”, and he called me into the bunker.

When I went inside the bunker, he was there with Kyle Brown, who was off to the side. Master Corporal Matchee was holding a wooden baton in his hand.

As I stepped inside the bunker, just to paint the scene for you, I was a trooper at this time and I was not on duty. I was the lowest rank, a trooper, which equates to private, and he was the master corporal. This whole bunker situation with prisoners was not my task and never was. My duties belonged with foot patrolling downtown, but he called me over. He knew I was not in his section, so it was not an area of my responsibility, yet I went over. He was a master corporal. I looked inside the bunker. I stepped inside the bunker, and with the wooden baton he lifted up Shidane Arone's head and I saw a bruised and bloody face. The lips were swollen; the nose looked somewhat busted.

When I initially looked at it, I asked myself if this was from the point of capture and if it happened at the time he was captured. I was not entirely sure. This was at about 11:05 that night. I didn't expect that the prisoner was in any sort of dire condition. I was a boxer for five years previously in the amateur circuit in Alberta and British Columbia. I had seen a lot of wounds and experienced a lot of wounds in the ring. He didn't look as though he was in any imminent harm. I looked and saw that, and my mind was thinking he just wanted to show me or tell me that we had a prisoner, I guessed. I didn't really know why I was there. Then he looked down, Master Corporal Clayton Matchee, who had just finished showing me the prisoner, and all of a sudden he started whacking Shidane Arone across the thigh with the baton, and he started swearing and saying “Fucking spiders”—I apologize for my language—and he started beating the baton on the legs and moving backward and then turned around to the rear of the bunker, continually smacking that baton against the sides of the wall of the bunker. There were no camel spiders there.

We were inundated with camel spiders, which are huge, gross, ugly. It's not even a spider. It's in the arachnid family, but it's quite the pest. It's quite formidable. We were inundated with these things. What I experienced was Clayton Matchee in a state of hallucination, in a state of psychosis, in a state of severe aggression. Because he had turned around and was preoccupied with these camel spiders—and this all happened in a matter of seconds—I saw my opportunity to leave. I saw what he was doing. It made no sense. I looked over at Kyle Brown, who looked at me, and we didn't know what was going on. Kyle Brown was a trooper as well at that time, the lowest rank like myself. I had only just turned 22 years old. I thought that was my opportunity to get the hell out of there, so I backtracked, got out of the bunker, and started walking the hell away to get back to my cot. I just wanted to go back to bed. It was about 11:08 at night.

As I walked away, I was about 25 paces or less, and Kyle Brown came whipping up behind me and said, “John, John, John.” I stopped and looked at him. He said, “I don't know what's going on here. This isn't in my nature. I don't understand what's happening.” I said, “Neither do I. He's a master corporal. You're a trooper, as am I. There are orders. I don't understand what's going on either. I'm going back to my cot.” He just stood there for a moment. I went back to my cot. I turned and walked away and after a couple of steps I noticed that he headed back towards the bunker with his head down.

When I got back to my cot, I immediately put on the same album I always put on to try to get to sleep and decompress from the day's activities, which for me usually meant foot patrolling downtown or some shotgun diplomacy down at the Bailey bridge. I would put on the same album.

It was the new release by the Barenaked Ladies. It's actually their first album. There was a lot of acoustic music, very soft, quieting, and it helped me to decompress and to try to fall asleep. It's a 58-minute album. After 58 minutes, listening to the entirety of that album in my cot in my bed space away from the bunker, I took off the headphones. I couldn't sleep. I was still somewhat in shock over what had happened. I didn't expect this. It was very strange.

I wasn't a smoker, but I did smoke. I wouldn't ever buy them because that would be admitting that I liked to smoke. So I would bum off people. I knew Brady MacDonald was at the compound or at the communications headquarters tent doing his shift. I knew he was on shift so I thought I'd go over and see if he'd give me a cigarette. Brady MacDonald was always a soft touch. He was very nice to me and he handed me one. It was an Export A. “Green Death”, they call those green packs. They're horrible cigarettes anyway.

I had the cigarette and just before I finished the cigarette, I looked over to the open end of the modular tentage, and I saw a group of guys coming out and standing around that bunker that I'd been to an hour or so before. They were trying to revive Shidane Arone, who was now completely prone on the ground, unresponsive. They threw water on top of him, trying to revive him. They could not. I walked over, and I saw what was happening. Someone said, Get the medic!” I just went, “Oh, my God.” I turned around, and I don't remember too much after that. I remember I might have talked to one or two people and gone back to my cot.

The next day, there we were and things started rolling along quite quickly. The police interviewed me to find out where I was during the time of the events, and they in due course decided I would be testifying for the prosecution of Kyle Brown. So I did the testifying for the prosecution.

That was my situation in the bunker the couple of minutes I was there, and that's what I experienced.

I knew Clayton Matchee prior to the tour, so I have the ability to understand exactly what state Clayton Matchee was in at that moment, and what was going on. His beating camel spiders that weren't there is absolutely hallucinogenic and so was the psychosis of the rage he was in. He didn't even notice us leaving the bunker. He didn't even stop us, where before he was all concerned about calling me over.

I could go on, but that's enough, I guess, for you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Thank you.

[Dave Bona]

John, could you illustrate the order received by Master Corporal Matchee on how to deal with that prisoner?

[John Dowe]

Yes, we were ordered to rough up the prisoners. In the case of Shidane Arone, he had been caught about 15 times before. He was a repeat offender. It wasn't the first time he had tried to gain access to the compound. Of course, at that time, as far as what the environment was like, there were increasing hostilities downtown. Things were moving along and there were a lot more hostilities. Things were much more tense at that time. Shidane was a repeat offender, and we were told in our orders group, as we were sat down by our section commanders, to rough up the prisoners and send a message, to throw them back over the wire and make them understand we meant business. Does that give licence to Master Corporal Matchee? Of course not.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Mr. Eyolfson.

[Doug Eyolfson, Liberal, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

Thank you.

I can't even begin to imagine what any of you must be feeling with all the things you're describing.

John, could you describe what kind of symptoms you had from dealing with this event?

[John Dowe]

You mean the kind of symptoms I had psychologically?

[Doug Eyolfson, Liberal, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

Yes.

[John Dowe]

I didn't have closure. The funny thing, as I mentioned in my initial oral submission today, is that after the events of Somalia and the opprobrium we had faced nationally because of the events, a lot of us didn't really speak. It wasn't a topic of conversation we wanted to get into.

I was misdiagnosed in 2000 and released from the military with some sort of funky arthritic disease called ankylosing spondylitis. I never had it, and I proved the misdiagnosis in 2015 and corrected that. However, in 2000 I was released for this hereditary disease I didn't have and I asked myself what I would like to do. I always liked teaching and had done some instructional work at the infantry school prior to my release. So I went to East Asia. I taught English for a few years over there and then settled in Toronto in 2005, not around any military members. I was out of the picture and didn't even understand what was going on. I never kept in contact with people. I fully transitioned into the civilian world. The same goes for mefloquine. So I didn't know.

However, I didn't have closure from the events in the bunker. Now, the very smart woman I had married, Anna Zacios, has a degree in psychology from York University. She could see that I had certain things I needed to find closure with, and one of them was most certainly the experience I'd had with Kyle Brown in the bunker. So in late 2008 or 2009, I took her advice. I went and saw a counsellor. I was then diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder. I went to counselling to deal with the memory loss and all of those other things, including the survivor guilt I felt from the experience.

[Doug Eyolfson, Liberal, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

From what I understand of the timeline, everyone in the unit was being prescribed mefloquine; this was a universal practice in the unit at the time?

[John Dowe]

We were part of a commercial drug trial at the time, so everybody was to take that drug. There were no exceptions.

I believe air crew were exempt. Yes, they were. Some people who had some genetic factors were given doxycycline, or if they had presented with certain symptoms they would have been given the doxycycline. Unfortunately for most of the troops on the ground in Somalia, that wasn't an option.

[Doug Eyolfson, Liberal, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

All right.

In terms of the symptoms, the trouble with closure you were having, was it believed that some of your own symptoms were due to mefloquine as well?

[John Dowe]

Not at the time.

My discovery of mefloquine came about only after the phone call with Kyle Brown in the fall of 2014—so just two short years ago. I had no idea about mefloquine. But I got into the weeds on it and found out that today, there are three types of people: someone who has issues, but doesn't know if it's PTSD; someone who doesn't have issues, but took mefloquine and is concerned about his permanent long-term health; or someone who does have PTSD commingled with or has the comorbidity effect of having mefloquine intoxication, with exacerbation through PTSD.

We have these commingled things, and this is why we're asking for research to disentangle what is post-traumatic stress disorder, what is mefloquine intoxication, and give people the answers, because there's confusion on this everywhere.

[Doug Eyolfson, Liberal, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

Thank you.

Claude, again, I'm so sorry for the experience you've had. We know you do need help.

Right now, are there any services that you're accessing through Veterans Affairs?

[Claude Lalancette]

I've completely disengaged from Veterans Affairs. Just recently, for some, reason, they've sprung up to action and are offering me benefits. But the community is more aware of what's out there, and VAC is not aware whatsoever.

Before coming here I had to build my energy, had to build my state of mind, to get this organized. It was overwhelming.

What I learned during this journey of the last two weeks is that in my community there's mental health outreach that VAC is not aware of. And this is very promising, because it's done with compassion; it's done with respect; and it's done with care. Care, compassion, respect: something VAC doesn't have.

When I got locked up at the Grand River Hospital from talking about my symptoms, it was done so abruptly and rudely. I broke down. I kicked that door, and there were two officers just waiting for that door to swing open. If that door had swung open, I'm telling you, I wouldn't be sitting here today.

We need to educate. That's why I brought those doctors on Tuesday. And now, today, you have testimonies of thousands of people—Canadian citizens, veterans, and service members who are screaming.

I have seen the fire being lit right now in the community, and we demand answers and immediate outreach.

Thank you.

[Doug Eyolfson, Liberal, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Mr. Rioux.

[Jean Rioux, Liberal, Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you.

I've been in politics for a long time, and I have to admit that your testimony today really moved me.

I especially want to tell you that you are put together. You have presented your case, and I think you have chosen the right place to do it. We are here to represent you. I feel challenged as an MP today. This is perhaps one of the most important roles I will have to play.

I will continue along the same lines as my colleague who asked whether you still had any connection with Veterans Affairs Canada.

As an aside, I'm new to this committee.

Regardless of what you should have, are you currently still eligible for services?

[Claude Lalancette]

Sir, when I came here for my second hunger strike, I planted my feet on Parliament Hill at the right time. I met the right people. People from the 31 Canadian Brigade Group guided me. They opened my file. They saw why things were slow. There are things that just don't sit well with me. Some things were suspended and others were cancelled.

In addition, I wanted to appeal because I felt this decision had violated that my rights. However, I received a letter from a lawyer who had made the decision not to appeal.

[Jean Rioux, Liberal, Saint-Jean, QC]

So there are some things that you're eligible for, but you aren't receiving them.

[Claude Lalancette]

That's right.

[Jean Rioux, Liberal, Saint-Jean, QC]

Okay.

You spoke at length about research. You talked about you and veterans, but this affects all Canadians. As I understand it, the drug is still freely available, unfortunately.

Who do you think should do this research?