Veterans Affairs Committee on Jan. 30th, 2017

[Doug Eyolfson, Liberal, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

All right. Thank you.

Now, with regard to the RCMP, I find this very close to my heart. My dad was a 25-year veteran of the RCMP, so some of the issues that you talk about sound very familiar to me.

When someone is on medical leave or a diagnosis has been made, does the RCMP have the equivalent of universality of service that the military has?

[Sebastien Anderson]

No.

[Doug Eyolfson, Liberal, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

Okay.

Can someone have restricted duties but still be a member of the RCMP? Let's say they have a physical injury that prevents walking for long distances and they would be better at a desk and that sort of thing.

[David Reichert]

I find it very strange what the RCMP does. If you get into a car accident, they send out an investigator, they send out an analyst, and they take measurements and photos. They take statements from everybody involved and they find out what the cause of that accident was.

If you're involved in a shooting or you're involved in any use of force, they create an investigation. They do it. They do everything possible to come to a resolution and see if the person needs more training or what they can do to deal with the situation.

When it comes to workplace injuries involving PTSD and everything else, there's no investigation. All that happens is you come into the office and they tell you you're going to see a psychologist by policy, and that's the end of it. A number of times what they do is send you to your doctor, and he sends you back to work in the same environment that you were having issues with.

There's a very common factor here that when you speak to lawyers, doctors, psychologists, and treating physicians, the same names of people involved in these issues keep coming up, and unless you know what the problem is, how do you treat? You can't send the same person back to the same environment unless there's change, and the responsibility lies not only with the employer but also with the employee. They have to work together to resolve the issue, but right now it's all on the employee, and it's very difficult for that employee to return to that environment.

[Doug Eyolfson, Liberal, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

All right.

Have there been any initiatives in the RCMP to address the kinds of situations or procedures that bring about PTSD? Has anyone said that when occurrence x happens, they have a higher incidence of PTSD? Can we review how this is dealt with when officers have to face situation x? Has anything like that been done in the RCMP?

[David Reichert]

Not that I'm aware of, and I deal with a lot of members. Even though I'm retired, I have them phoning me up at night when they're having problems, and there's that gap. The idea is if you have a mental problem or you're having a problem, go see a doctor. We now kind of wash it away. We're not dealing with you. It just becomes no resolve, and it doesn't help the patient. It doesn't help anybody.

I'm not aware of any direction like that.

[Rae Banwarie]

Part of that issue, and it's a big piece, stems from trust, as I mentioned in my presentation. You're seen as one member, and—probably parallel to the military—if something happens, you become the weak link. You're seen now as the weak person, and that in itself has all kinds of repercussions, especially for front-line police work, where you're supposed to be the guy or gal to go out in public and be in control, take charge, and have the ability to make decisions and have a back-up plan. If you can't, because of whatever issues you're facing, you're the weak link now. You're no good, so we'll put you somewhere else where you're not in the limelight, which undermines and exacerbates the situation. It makes it even worse.

You don't trust the employer and the health care process because, if you report it, it gets worse. You're not seen, or there's no process in place to help you get past that effectively. You're just in a cycle until you either leave or you get to the point where you can't work and they medically discharge you, and then there's the whole other side of that, because now your situation is even worse. You're more isolated.

Then there's the spinoff of that with your wife, family, relationships, and all of that.

[Doug Eyolfson, Liberal, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Mr. Fraser is next.

[Colin Fraser, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you all very much for being here today, for sharing your stories, and also for your service to Canada.

Ms. Lowther, I will start with you. I believe that your organization was started in 2010 and since that time has assisted a thousand homeless veterans in getting off the street. Your organization is very much to be commended for that good work and for your continued efforts.

With regard to that progress, as an organization, have you seen the incidence of homelessness on the decline? Are there more supports in place? Have improvements been made, and if so, can you tell us about them?

[Debbie Lowther]

We certainly haven't seen the numbers decline. If anything, we're seeing more, but I think that might be due to the fact that we have more and more volunteers out in the streets looking.

I think improvements have been made. I know the department has assigned a case manager in each district specifically to be the homeless point of contact who will oversee issues of veteran homelessness. I think that's a positive step.

The fact that the department awarded us a contract in itself I think speaks to the fact that they've recognized there is an issue. When we started in 2010, we went to Veterans Affairs in Halifax, and the case manager we talked to said there were no homeless veterans because they had brochures printed up and took them to the shelters and nobody called them. Therefore, there were no homeless veterans. We had already found three in Halifax at that point.

That was 2010. Fast-forward to 2014, and we are awarded a contract in the field of veterans homelessness outreach. I think that speaks to some progress being made. Then there's the fact that the department is willing to work more and more with community organizations like ours. Like the shelters, they're getting more involved and more interested, and I think they're taking the issue more seriously. I think improvements have been made.

[Colin Fraser, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

Thank you.

One of the things that I think you've indicated in previous discussions is that training for caregivers is important to ensure that they have the resources and tools they need to help their spouse or partner or family member. Have you seen improvements in that regard with training for caregivers, and if so, can you tell us what they are? If not, does your organization help in that department as well?

[Debbie Lowther]

I'm not aware of any kind of training, so to speak. I know discussions are under way, so again, I think that issue is being recognized, and it definitely is important.

I can speak from my own experience. When my husband was struggling with PTSD, I never knew if what I was doing was helpful or harmful. I'm not an educated caregiver, and most spouses aren't. I think it would be very important to have that training.

We aren't really in a position to offer that kind of training or that kind of counselling to spouses who are in a caregiving role, other than, again, peer support. As I mentioned, the majority of our volunteers are still serving members or veterans, or they're family members, so if we have a situation in which the caregiver seems to be the person who's struggling, then we will try to have one of our military spouses team up and offer some peer support.

[Colin Fraser, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

You mentioned in your opening comments that perhaps upon being released, a member should be assigned peer support. Is that for every releasing member, do you think, or for those who perhaps have already identified mental issues?

[Debbie Lowther]

I think it would probably be beneficial for everyone, and then it would be determined if it needed to continue. I look at that as almost like an Alcoholics Anonymous sponsor, if I could use that comparison. That's what I'm thinking of when I talk about having a peer assigned. It's somebody to guide that member through the process, somebody just to talk to or go and have coffee with.

[Colin Fraser, Liberal, West Nova, NS]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Anderson, if I could turn to you, Ms. Lowther touched on the importance of having training for caregivers. I wonder what your experience is with regard to family members being assisted or having access to counselling or support within the RCMP community. Could you touch on that, please?

[Sebastien Anderson]

Frankly, it's non-existent.

I often end up speaking with the spouses. They are often the first ones to contact the office when things aren't going well at home and the member, due to pride or personal embarrassment, hasn't shared the full story of what's happening at work with their spouse. Tensions increase at home. The spouse doesn't understand why. They contact our office, and we try and walk them through the process, but just as there is no support for the member, there is no support for the spouse either. It's a really bleak situation.

One of our clients, a female RCMP member, needed a transfer because she was no longer physically able to do the tasks of a constable on the beat. Her detachment commander told her there was no possible way she could get a transfer to headquarters or to another assignment because, and I quote, “I own you.” That's an indication of the mentality that exists within the RCMP. There is no meaningful accommodation in those circumstances. If the members aren't getting the support and go home with those kinds of stories, the spouses just don't understand and are left in just as much of a quandary. Then the whole family suffers.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Thank you.

Go ahead, Mr. Kitchen.

[Robert Gordon Kitchen, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you all for being here today. It's nice and very helpful to have the RCMP providing a perspective within this conversation.

One of the things that I've said for quite a while, and I think we're hearing it here from all three organizations, is that we construct our soldiers and our RCMP officers, but we don't deconstruct them once they're done. How can we do it to make it successful such that we don't see issues build up as we have heard?

I appreciate your comments and I know my colleagues do as well, so I thank you.

Captain, your conversation touched on that quite a bit, and I appreciate that. As you see, I called you “Captain”. That comes from growing up in a military life. It's just out of respect.

With regard to having soldiers there to discuss the issues around mental health, training them in that aspect, and putting them into that role, how do you see that assisting soldiers as they make that transition?

[Hélène Le Scelleur]

Thank you for the question.

I think it would be a good idea for service members who have left the Canadian Armed Forces to act as mentors or peer helpers to help people going through this transition.

When we talk about exit training, I also think it would be worthwhile to include families and children. It would be good to inform them about the situation, the mental health issues and how they can help. I think bringing families and soldiers together can help make this transition easier.

Have I answered your question?

[Robert Gordon Kitchen, Conservative, Souris—Moose Mountain, SK]

Yes, thank you very much. I appreciate that, very much so.

Gentlemen, I don't know to whom this should be addressed, so maybe I'll address it to whoever feels comfortable on this. I've had the privilege in my practice of having many friends and patients who were RCMP officers. I've watched them transition, and I've seen one or two that have had to deal with mental health issues as things went on.

You made a comment about OSI and the issues. It really was a very brief one. I'm wondering if you could expand on that experience and how your officers are dealing with that.

Perhaps Mr. Banwarie might be able to answer.

[Rae Banwarie]

Right now, you do have the ability through Veterans Affairs to go to an OSI clinic, depending on a diagnosis for whatever it may be, whether it's PTSD or anxiety and depression and that type of thing. From what I understand, the process has changed. Before now, you could get referred by just your GP. Now it has to be a referral from your doctor and health services through the RCMP. That is a huge issue for a lot of people.

Again I have to come back to the point on the trust issue. This is part of the whole problem: being seen as the weak link. The stigma is still there, and especially in our organization, for mental health. There are a lot of platitudes, a lot of paper, and a lot of documents, but when you start digging deeper to see how well it works, it's not working very well at all.

I've also been diagnosed with an OSI, and I know how hard it is and how that affects you in so many different ways. There are a lot of issues or problems, and I'm looking for the solutions as well, because I'm a very solution-driven individual. I look to see what else is happening. What's happening in the policing world with other agencies? A big part of it is that an independent body like the police association works collaboratively with the employer to address a lot of the falling-downs and shortcomings.

In terms of this change to needing to have the approval of the health services officer, a lot of the time it's just a commissioned officer who's working in conjunction with the doctors and psychologists who are paid by the force and who report to the force.

Let's give a practical example. You go in. You've been exposed to so much stuff. You're diagnosed with an occupational stress injury, whether it's PTSD or anxiety or depression or whatever it may be. The current process we have through Blue Cross gives you six hours to go and see any psychologist. After that, you have to apply to get the okay from health services to be able to continue getting treatment.

In my brief, you'll see an actual letter that was sent to every single member from Blue Cross, and I must share this with you, because it's pretty significant. It says that when you use the program, the “legislative and regulatory authorities to collect, use, and disclose your personal information is contained in” the new act that my colleague Mr. Anderson spoke about. It states, “By using this card, you are authorizing the RCMP, Medavie Blue Cross, its agents and service providers to collect, use, and disclose information about you for the purpose of RCMP Supplemental and Occupational Health Care benefits....” The only way you can get this is if you agree to share your information.

I also have in the brief the letter that I wrote to the privacy officer at Blue Cross asking who these agents are. Who are these other people? In any situation, the privacy.... It would be no different from you going to see your doctor and then finding out after you've seen your doctor that your employer knows everything about you and everything about your situation. Right away, the red flags go up. That's just the way it is for the members who call us and who reach out to us. That's just the simplest piece, the starting point.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Thank you.

I want to ask a clarifying question. On the Blue Cross, do you have a turndown rate for separate applications? You say they're only allowed so many chances.

[Rae Banwarie]

I don't have that statistic to tell you how many have been disallowed in terms of getting more care.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Okay. If you could get that data and get it back to us, please, it would also help us.