Veterans Affairs Committee on Jan. 30th, 2017

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Go ahead, Ms. Lockhart.

[Alaina Lockhart, Liberal, Fundy Royal, NB]

Thank you.

While we were going through the testimony here, I looked back and saw that in October of last year we had retired Captain Andrew Garsh here. He talked about reconstructing identity and had found a program called Shaping Purpose, which they were going to pilot in Fredericton. I'm just wondering if any of you are aware of that. It's a training program. We'll go back to that at some point, because I think it hit a lot of the things that you were talking about, but it was in a pilot stage.

I wanted to congratulate to you, Ms. Le Scelleur, for being selected to represent Canada in the Invictus Games.

[Hélène Le Scelleur]

Thank you.

[Alaina Lockhart, Liberal, Fundy Royal, NB]

The reason I bring it up is that I wanted to talk to you a little bit about how activities like sports can impact those who are transitioning out of the military. Maybe you can tell us a little bit about your personal experience.

[Hélène Le Scelleur]

Thank you for the question.

Actually, I just returned yesterday from Switzerland, where I was skiing with two Canadian veterans and some British veterans, for the Supporting Wounded Veterans charity. The idea of this organization is mainly to use sport to provide a mentoring program, which is offered by the business community. The goal is to help the individual to find a job, to return to work or to take training to find a new occupation.

The positive response to my participation in the Invictus Games came in November, as was the opportunity to go skiing with veterans. I can assure you that the change in my life occurred then. Indeed, I had an objective in front of me that allowed me to consider participating, with my friends, in something much bigger than me.

Thank you.

[Alaina Lockhart, Liberal, Fundy Royal, NB]

Thank you.

Here is a question to all of our witnesses.

We've mentioned sports. Are there other alternative therapies that you have seen that have had positive results that we should be looking at closely?

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

I'll just have to apologize. We'll have to make it very quick because we are short on time.

[Debbie Lowther]

I could talk about a program that we launched about two years ago called Guitars for Vets. The idea behind that came from when my husband was struggling with PTSD. He decided to pick up his guitar, which had been sitting in the corner for a long time, and it was very helpful for him. Back in late 2013 and early 2014 we saw a string of veteran suicides, and at that point in time he decided that something should be done, so we launched Guitars for Vets. Basically, we use donated guitars, and the veteran or RCMP member is provided with 10 free lessons with a volunteer guitar instructor. I have to say that we get more response from that program, with people saying, “You saved my life”, than we do with people whom we've taken off the streets. It's amazing.

[Alaina Lockhart, Liberal, Fundy Royal, NB]

Thank you very much.

[Rae Banwarie]

That is a fabulous strategy, getting that sort of response and basically saving lives. For us, what we did was support peer groups, just for members to get together and talk, and you'd be amazed at how much healing came from that. For us who are part of this work, this is healing when we can help others and save lives, because that's what it is.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Thank you.

Mr. Brassard is next.

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to start with you. We're hearing two different stories here. We had management and HR from the RCMP come in talking about the stigma associated with mental health and how it's actually seemingly okay now, but I'm hearing a different story from you, so I want to touch on that. I want you to touch on that briefly if you can. Why are we hearing two different stories on this?

[Rae Banwarie]

There are many things you have to consider. I'm a proud member of the organization, still a serving current member, and I am leading the charge to bring about a lot of changes. At the end of the day, when you cut everything aside, put everything off the table, it's control and putting out what people want to hear and what people want to see versus what is actually happening.

The case that was cited, the privacy breach, is a clear indicator of that in terms of the stigma. We have been actively helping our members. They're turning to us. The trust component is there for us. We are not being given the ability to do this work full time to save, to reach out, to make differences in people's lives.

You will always get management telling you about all these great programs, all these great processes. I've had the same discussion with several senior officers. I've said that you can put however many programs and however many processes in place, but none of it is going to matter if you don't have the trust. That is a key piece that is missing.

Dr. Webster is one of the psychologists. There's another one, Dr. Passey, a well-known psychologist in B.C. who has spoken out against the same issues, who's also in the same situation. Just by looking at this idea or problem as a different concept, I became aware in different provinces—Ontario, Manitoba, and I think Alberta—of presumptive legislation for PTSD. The biggest division in the country, British Columbia, does not have that for all first responders. It's not only police; it's military, it's firefighters, it's ambulances. Those basic things must be in place.

An NDP member in British Columbia, Shane Simpson, was the one who entered a private member's bill—I don't have the number in front of me—to try to get that recognized in the province of B.C. It didn't go anywhere.

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

Right. You'll be glad to know that there's a private member's bill coming nationally that we're going to be debating soon that's going to speak to a national framework on PTSD recognition.

I have another question.

I had the opportunity to visit the Sunnybrook Health Sciences Centre, and I know that one of the things they're proposing is a centre for post-traumatic stress disorder. I would like briefly to hear from all of you whether you think it would be a good idea to have a centre for post-traumatic stress disorder to deal with not only veterans but also RCMP, or the potential of both.

Debbie, would you start quickly?

[Debbie Lowther]

Absolutely, I think that would be wonderful. As I mentioned earlier, the veterans community has been asking for a veteran-specific treatment program for quite some time. If that were to happen, it would make a lot of people very happy.

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

Rae, would you comment?

[Rae Banwarie]

I would concur with that. Anything we can put into play that will help our people will be money well spent.

[Hélène Le Scelleur]

I would say the same thing.

I would like to add that the services should be bilingual.

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

You'd like them to be bilingual. Okay. Thank you.

How much time do I have?

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

You have just over a minute.

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

Okay.

On the issue of suicide, I know you mentioned 31 suicides. How does the RCMP track suicides? Among current members it's obvious, but more specifically for the retired members, how is that done, Rae?

[Rae Banwarie]

I am unaware of any process until recently, when it became an issue and they started tracking and looking at this. That number starts from 2006. Prior to that, I have no idea if they even counted.

My colleague Mr. Reichert could talk to you about some of the situations prior to that, specifically in Burnaby.

[David Reichert]

In the detachment I had in Burnaby, in one year five people committed suicide. In my career, 19 guys I've worked with have committed suicide. I'm not aware of any investigations that took place. I know I spoke to them hours before or sometimes just the day before some of these people took their lives, and no one ever asked me any questions. I know what was going through their heads. I know what occurred in their lives to lead to their decision. No one ever talked about it. I'm not aware of any investigation. I think basically they kept it quiet so that no one had to take the responsibility.

I advise the members to pull their health records, because when you pull your health records, you want to have a look at your sign-out card to see who had access to your particular files—if, in fact, they've filled it out. In one case in particular, a member who was going through PTSD had on their health record, “This person is a nut”, written by a member of the force. Who knows who looked at that health record? That's part of the whole issue.

However, I'm not aware of any record or cause and effect or any study that's ever been done.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Thank you.

[Rae Banwarie]

If I might, I would mention one thing quickly. You asked about suicides. I am aware that a special coroner has been appointed to do an investigation on suicides in B.C. John Knox, out of the B.C. coroner's office, will start with the suicide of Pierre Lemaitre and look at the suicides of several other RCMP members. That report is at least two years overdue, and I believe it is being stifled for political reasons. The families that have reached out to us have not had any response or any follow-up.