Veterans Affairs Committee on Feb. 13th, 2018

[Gary Walbourne]

The only reports I see are probably the same ones everyone in this room sees when the department reports on its performance. When I speak to measurement, I want to talk about the programs that are actually helping transitioning members. Let's take vocational rehabilitation for an example. I'd like to know how many people are getting into that program, what courses of study they're following, and if they are having a successful completion. Once they've completed that, are they finding employment, and what types of resources are we bringing to bear there? I do believe we measure full outputs of money at the end of the year. We've spent x number of billions of dollars, but those are not the performance indicators I'm talking about. I'm talking about the day-to-day operational performance indicators that help move implementation of a recommendation forward. We see a lack of that. We see it sporadically. I think it's something that we really need to start focusing on if we're going to see real improvement here.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

How's the government collecting data that you see, and what could they be doing differently in how they're doing that?

[Gary Walbourne]

I think we're collecting data from multiple sources, maybe too much of it. It's how we present that data, and how we hold it up against what our end goal was. If my end goal is to make sure everyone receives a paycheque, but I'm measuring the number of windows I have in the building, they don't align. This is what I'm finding. We talk at a very high level about measurement. I'm turning over this many applications in this length of time. What's the outcome of that? What is the impact of that? These are the things that we don't have visibility on. I believe if we're going to really change things, we have to get down to that level of detail.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Do you believe that there should be an independent officer of Parliament who would be overseeing and looking at that and moving that forward?

[Gary Walbourne]

That goes back to another report where the recommendation wasn't accepted. It's always been my opinion that any conversation in and around this community is of national importance. I believe if Parliament is going to dictate what the lives of serving members and veterans look like, then they should have a voice at the table.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

My friend Mr. McColeman just starting talking to you about concierge service and the importance of that. I know you only had a short moment to speak to it. Do you want to elaborate more about what's necessary there?

[Gary Walbourne]

We submitted a report to the department on a new service delivery model. Inside were three recommendations, one of which was a concierge service. Though I never got an official response back saying they accepted the recommendation, I have seen it in “Strong, Secure, Engaged”, the defence policy. It's been written in there. From what I understand from General Jon Vance, they have now mapped out “the journey” and what it will look like. I believe he is picking up on the concierge service inside of that. There will be transition services provided to every transitioning member, not just the ill or injured. All members will receive personal service as they leave the military. I think that's exactly where we want to be.

My concern, which I'll go back to, is with some of the timelines. We're looking at 2020, 2022, 2025. This is why I say we need to hold people accountable to what they have committed they would do, have measurable goals that we can review on a regular basis, and question why we're either meeting or not meeting that target.

I think that's where we need to go. I do believe the concierge service will be a big part of “the journey” going forward.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

We have a lot of veterans who are falling through the cracks. There will be a rally on Thursday for homeless vets, those who are not getting service. I certainly appreciate the concierge service moving forward. I think it's totally necessary. We believe soldiers shouldn't leave the military without services in place.

What do we do to help those veterans who are falling through the cracks, who are on the streets?

[Gary Walbourne]

Well, I think we're started down the right path, although another recommendation I made was to hold the member until all benefits and services from all sources were in place. Again, I never received an acceptance of that recommendation, but I know that it's been talked about. I haven't seen the policy suite behind it, but the rule of thumb now is that we hold the member until everything's in place. It has been said by General Vance and it has been said by the minister.

I still wait for the policy suite to come in behind that so that the commanding officers across the country have something they can hang their hats on. We wait for that.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

The Veterans Hiring Act came into effect in July 2015. Do you have numbers on how many vets have been able to access public service jobs through this act since it came into place?

[Gary Walbourne]

I'm sorry. I do not. We started to track the numbers over the summer. In August the performance standards were published. I think about 27% or 28% of the files were being turned on time.

I wrote a bit of an op-ed, and ever since I've been trying to find the numbers again. They seem to have disappeared. I have no idea what the current performance is, not since about September or October of last year. I have not seen the numbers published since.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Thank you.

Mr. Bratina.

[Bob Bratina, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Mr. Walbourne, no one will disagree with your essential point that we keep having reviews and nothing gets done. When did you actually start? How many years back did you begin this process?

[Gary Walbourne]

I became deputy ombudsman at Veterans Affairs Canada about eight years ago. I remember the first day I walked in on a conversation. We were talking about a couple of things. We were talking about the Pension Act. One of the words that came up in that conversation was “transition”.

I've been at it for about eight years. I know that others have been at it for far, far longer than I. Transition has been within the top five issues I've been dealing with for the last eight years, consistently.

[Bob Bratina, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Your frustration is that we identify problems and possible remedies, and then nothing gets done.

[Gary Walbourne]

You know, to hold a member was I think a good recommendation. Whether it's accepted officially or not, it's good that it's in there. It's a great step forward. But I have no policy suite behind that. There is a resource implication coming. I wonder if people understand. Holding people in situ for a period of time comes with a cost. Have we thought about that cost? How do we mitigate that going forward?

In terms of where my frustration comes from, I think we have all talked about what the solutions are. I think those in positions of command have accepted what are logic- and evidence-based recommendations, but now we see that it's about implementation and delivery. When is it going to happen? Is it resourced? Has it been delayed? We need to know these things.

As an example, if General Vance has decided that “the journey” is the way forward, then I would like to see a report card, by month, that takes me through to that end state so that we can find out exactly where we are. I do believe that the solutions to our problems exist in all the recommendations that have been made. It's coming down to implementation.

I do believe that senior management is seized with these issues. Nobody is running away from them. But we seem to come at this from a very disjointed position. We don't measure it. We don't report on it. That, I think, is a fundamental flaw.

[Bob Bratina, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Let me bring it right down to ground level. I have a very recent issue in my own office with a veteran. He is perhaps in his fifties and served in his twenties. He is now seeking a disability award. He has been turned down.

In my interview with him, I found out that he wasn't aware of a My VAC Account, so we got that straightened out. He wasn't aware that there was an ombudsman, or that if you have a complaint that you haven't been treated fairly, you can go to the ombudsman. Because we're getting the message out, this awareness process seems to be creating this backlog that we're hearing about of thousands more. Would you agree that there is greater awareness being created, and that this is bringing its own kinds of problems?

[Gary Walbourne]

I do believe we've raised the level of awareness. I think there has been more talk, more publicity, more advertising around this community, so I do believe you're right. The level of awareness is coming up, and it's going to present some challenges. I don't know if I'd call them problems, but it is going to present some challenges for the department, especially with those who have been away from the organization for a period of time. That time lag does cause problems, “my file is probably over at archives, so it has to be retrieved”.

It can cause some delays and backlogs, but I do believe that part of the creation of the new veterans charter was the idea that you can come to it at any point in time. Thirty years after you've left, 40 years after you've left, if there's a malady that has a relationship to service, you can come back to the new veterans charter.

That's a good thing, but yes, we're going to get some more people who have not been aware coming forward.

[Bob Bratina, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

This is a case that I think can be applied generally, so I don't mind talking about it. You say, “Well, they know if it's attributable to service, so why don't they just tell them?” However, he's saying that in his twenties he took on a condition that has now created problems for him. He has a signed doctor's note saying that, but his application is being denied.

If you had something like that on your desk, how would you try to deal with it?

[Gary Walbourne]

First and foremost, if the person has an illness or injury that is attributable to service and if we can do the causation between the two, he's entitled to services and benefits from Veterans Affairs Canada. There can be no question around that.

I don't know the details. This individual has a veterans ombudsman he can approach. There is nothing that stops him from coming back into the system at any point in time. It's an old file. I suspect there may not be the causation between illness or injury and time served. Without the details, it would be a little difficult, but if I have an injury where there's a clear attribution to military service, the person is entitled to benefits and services from Veterans Affairs Canada.

[Bob Bratina, Liberal, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

Thanks for your work, and thanks for your comments.

I know we can't argue about specific cases, but this is generally how the cases flow within our office, so one of our problems is actually having a full understanding with our staff about the programs and so on.

The other problem I might suggest is that we have to look at the general health care system, how municipalities may be addressing questions of homelessness since they're the front line in terms of providing residential spaces, the provinces' role, and so on.

Would you agree with me that everybody has to take on the challenge that veterans awards and benefits require?

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

You'll have to make your answer very short. I'm sorry.

[Gary Walbourne]

Without a doubt, they're a national treasure. I think we all have a role to play.

[The Chair, Liberal, Neil Ellis]

Thank you.

Ms. Lambropoulos, you have six minutes.

[Emmanuella Lambropoulos, Liberal, Saint-Laurent, QC]

Mr. Walbourne, thank you very much for being here with us today. Every time I hear you speak, I can see your passion, and I know that you really do want to make a positive difference for these veterans. Thank you for everything that you do, and for being here with us today.

You mentioned several times that the study has been done and that we have not followed through with the recommendations. Obviously, it's our goal to make sure that the recommendations do get implemented.

I know Colin touched on this, but since you have a lot more experience than we do, I was wondering if you could tell us where in the bureaucracy, at what level, you think it is being stopped. Why aren't these recommendations being implemented? Do you think it's more on the DND side or on the Veterans Affairs side?