Veterans Affairs Committee on March 10th, 2020

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Coming back to the backlog, around how multi-faceted it is, I know the ombudsperson said very clearly that one of his concerns is that there doesn't seem to be a comprehensive plan for moving forward.

How are you guys doing in creating a plan, and will that be available to the public?

[Gen (Ret'd) Walter Natynczyk]

I'm not sure we've put together a document that lays out the multipronged approach we're taking on right now. We could generate the document that would lay it out, but we are moving forward in terms of the balance between the hiring of additional staff.

We have not been able to totally leverage technology. I've asked the team again, “How do I create what exists at CRA, where you use TurboTax to do your claims? How do I create a “TurboVet”, so that it is totally intuitive, to ensure that we get all the information we need?"

The challenge we have is that whether folks are serving in the forces or after release, in some cases, we do not get a diagnosis. Without a diagnosis, we can't even start.

I looked over the shoulder of a staffer the other day, and even after repeated requests to the doctor for a diagnosis, what came back is that the veteran feels pain in a knee. Is that a meniscus tear? Is it an ACL injury? What is the issue, so that we can move forward? Those types of things just add to it. It is getting the accuracy, using My VAC Account, but also it's breaking down the barriers in terms of the integrated teams.

Do you want to add something there?

[Rick Christopher]

There are a number of things. I don't think they are all in a document, but there are over 12 initiatives that we are working on right now to deal with the backlog. Staffing is only one element. It's things such as making sure that we reduce the number of hand-offs, nudging people towards providing their application in My VAC Account, if that's appropriate for them, to make sure that there isn't missing information.

As the deputy mentioned, it's leveraging technology, using some AI to identify key documents in what are sometimes very large service documents.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you very much.

MP Lloyd, please. You have five minutes.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It's not my job to cheerlead the government or the department. There are five people across the table who are doing an excellent job of that. It's my job to hold the department accountable for our veterans, and then, overall, I think we will get to the best outcome for people.

When I hear you and the minister talk about compassion and flexibility, and that you'll be there when and where veterans and their families need you, the rhetoric is not matching the reality of the situation we're hearing on the ground.

At least 133 families have been told that they may be cut off from mental health services. Twenty sessions on a 1-800 number is not the same as in-person counselling. We have a great program, but when we're cutting off in-person counselling, important programs for families of veterans, will the department commit, going forward, to close the gap we've seen increasing for families of veterans who are not getting the mental health services they deeply need and deeply deserve to have?

[Gen (Ret'd) Walter Natynczyk]

I know this is a really troubling issue. Again, the challenge is one of a federal institution providing mental health support to non-veterans, which generally, in our construct, is provincial jurisdiction.

Therefore, the authority that the department has is focused on the well-being of each and every veteran. It is difficult drilling down to each one of those families that are struggling with their current circumstance and recognizing that mental health illness, mental health injury, is a nationwide problem. A member of one's family having made sacrifices and having served impacts the family, but again, it is the department working with each and every one of the mental health practitioners to provide the best support we can, either through face-to-face counselling or using the assistance capability, which is 20 sessions per issue that the family might be suffering through.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Deputy Minister, we know that this gap is troubling. We know these families are suffering. Your department has been providing short-term care for these families. You've been telling us that related to a veteran it's short term, but now you're saying that it's a provincial responsibility. How can your department say that it can provide short-term care but cannot provide long-term care because it's a provincial responsibility?

Why can't you extend the program so that the outcomes can be achieved? You're saying that you want to achieve outcomes, but we know that there are families who are coming forward and saying, “The outcomes have not been achieved. We have been cut off and we're paying $600 a month out of pocket for these services.”

[Gen (Ret'd) Walter Natynczyk]

Thanks very much for the question.

Again, the department itself does not provide care. All of the caregivers are working within a provincial jurisdiction. The authority that the department has, again, through our government machinery, is focused on the well-being of that veteran. If—

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Deputy Minister, when you're cutting off the funding coverage, though, you are effectively cutting off the care for the families. Wouldn't you agree?

[Gen (Ret'd) Walter Natynczyk]

I would also say that as my soon-to-retire colleague Michel Doiron indicated, we don't cut people off the program from a compassionate standpoint. We will allow the program to be completed so that the objectives, or as the mental health practitioners say, the “goals” of the treatment are completed.

At the end of the day, as Rick has outlined and as the ombudspersons—not only Mr. Craig Dalton but his predecessor Guy Parent—have highlighted, in some ways there is an argument for treating veterans' families in their own right. We don't have that authority.

[Dane Lloyd, Conservative, Sturgeon River—Parkland, AB]

Do I have any time left?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

You have about 30 seconds.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

He's only leaving me 30 seconds. Just quickly, the comments that were made on the previous question were that you modelled what resources would be required to reduce the backlog. You modelled it as though there was going to be a reduced number. Did you model it as if it was going to be an increased number? If you didn't, why didn't you? That's number one. This strikes us as total mismanagement, frankly.

Two years ago, we sat here and listened to you tell us that you had a plan to reduce this backlog. Zero, in fact, has been happening. As you're managing correctly, you're modelling, and why wouldn't you model in both directions?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

We'll have a very brief answer, please.

[Gen (Ret'd) Walter Natynczyk]

Sir, thanks so much for the question.

It's always a challenge when we're trying to establish the trend, go to government to get the resources and take the time not only to hire employees and train them but also to evolve all of our digital tools across the board in order to implement a significant change in how we process.

I can just say that we are pulling out all the stops. As the minister indicated, addressing the backlog is a priority, so we have a multi-faceted approach to address not only the surge of claims that we have now but going into the future as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you very much.

MP Samson, please.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to ask a question. In the mandate letter, there are important points that were asked of the minister. One is to “Implement a system of automatic approval for the most common disability applications.”

Just by the wording, it tells me that we're going to speed up the process and it's going to help with the backlog. Can you expand on that, please, and on where we're at on that objective?

[Gen (Ret'd) Walter Natynczyk]

Yes, sir. Thanks very much.

Going back to an earlier question, we are working with our allies to do modelling in order to address the backlog and accelerate decision-making, specifically working with the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs as well as the Australian Department of Veterans' Affairs to look at the kind of modelling they have done to accelerate their decision-making processes.

We are moving forward quickly. As mentioned in front of this panel before when it comes to mental health injuries, whereas previously the department used to try to associate the mental health injury with a particular circumstance, a particular operation, we've dispensed with that in order to accelerate the decision-making. If a veteran has served, there is no indication of a pre-existing mental health injury and we have a diagnosis, we move forward, to the point that we are approving 97% of all claims for PTSD.

I would turn it over to Rick Christopher to see if he has anything to add.

[Rick Christopher]

Some of the things we're looking at, for instance in terms of presumptive or automatic hearing loss, are that if you joined the military and your hearing was fine and you left the military and your hearing wasn't fine, it's likely that it was caused by your military service. We're looking at what the top claims are, the disability-type claims that we approve and the approval rate, and looking for opportunities there to say that it's likely as not related to your military service.

The second part of that, though, is determining the severity of the injury. We might automatically make the link to your military service, but we still have to do the work and look at the medical files to figure out the severity of your disability. Legislatively, that's what your pain and suffering compensation is based on.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Indirectly that will by itself increase approvals and, therefore, help with the backlog, so that's a key one as well.

[Gen (Ret'd) Walter Natynczyk]

I would just add to that, sir, and say absolutely.

What we're hearing from the Royal Canadian Legion service officers is that folks who were perhaps denied in the past are reapplying as we move forward, whether it be on hearing and tinnitus, in terms of mental health injuries or on musculoskeletal injuries. We know that if someone has been in the infantry, armour or artillery, there is a high likelihood that they would have a musculoskeletal injury after several years of service.

We're accelerating decisions along all of those domains, the net result of which is that we're getting folks who are coming back again—which is a terrific thing—in order to get the support they require moving forward.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Continuing on that approach to the backlog, because we need to find solutions supporting the increase of approvals, another piece of the mandate says, “Provide Veterans with a new benefit of up to $3,000 in additional free counselling services before a disability claim is required.”

Again, I would think that could be a strategy. Can you expand on that, please?

[Gen (Ret'd) Walter Natynczyk]

Again, sir, what we don't want to do is create frustration for veterans when they finally come forward, when they overcome the stigma that is tied to mental health injuries or illnesses. When they finally come forward, we want to get them into treatment right away.

We're working specifically on that point right now: to accelerate access to treatment for all of those veterans who present with a mental health injury.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

To draw the link to Ms. Blaney's question, that is a strategy they can access prior to even opening a claim.

[Gen (Ret'd) Walter Natynczyk]

That is correct, sir.

Again, it is one of the myriad of things we need to do in order to have this multi-faceted approach to supporting our veterans and addressing the backlog. I would really like to get to the point that, like your taxes, if you file your taxes electronically, you get an answer within two weeks.

Right now, we know that because of the number of claims coming in, we're around 32 weeks. Let's get it down to 16 weeks. Let's get it down to a month. Let's get it down to a couple of weeks. If we can get the right kind of information and slim down the application process, let's turn it around as quickly as we can.