Veterans Affairs Committee on April 21st, 2021

[Scot Davidson, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

Thanks, Glynne.

As both Marys alluded, this committee has the power to make change. That's what Canadians expect us to do. I have to say, as a new member of Parliament, I get so frustrated when I think things just won't change. We have the same reports, the same conversations and even the witnesses we have on here. We're going backwards. That's not what Canadians want to see. That's not what our veterans deserve.

I thank you so much for your testimony today.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you very much.

We will go to MP Fillmore for five minutes, please.

[Andy Fillmore, Liberal, Halifax, NS]

Thanks very much for that, Chair.

I'm focused on the participation rates of various programs. I don't really want to do this, but Mr. Doherty raised a point here. Of course this is heartbreaking work that we're all engaged with and we can never do enough. We want to go faster, but even as Dr. Passey pointed out, the problems that we face today stem from cuts made before the 2015 election. This is not what I want to be talking about here. Those cuts were compounded by a 90% increase in uptake of veterans programs. That uptake happened because we were offering better and more programs. We are earnestly doing our best to rebuild what was broken by the previous government and to keep up with the demand created by the work that we've done to provide more services. You're helping us to do that.

I'm sorry I had to go there for a moment. I would like to turn now to participation in some of these programs. For example, on the VAC assistance service telephone line, we understand that participation rates by family members are very low. I think that's held out as one of the programs through which we are trying to help caregivers and family members—even children as I understand it—in veteran households.

If any witness has experience with the assistance service telephone line, would you have any feedback for us on why the numbers are low, why uptake is low and what we might do better with that phone line? I'll just leave that wide open for anybody who has had that experience.

Mr. Gauthier, you have the floor.

[Richard Gauthier]

The issue is that the entitlements aren't explained properly and that it takes too long to access the benefits. As soon as a military member deals with Veterans Affairs Canada, they should be given a document explaining all the details of the program.

We've been talking about the Australian program for a while now, but the program in Canada is very good. The issue is always the same. There are too many steps and too many people involved before you get to the decision-maker or decision-makers. I think that setting up a 1-800 help line and preparing a good document that explains the process step by step will help support caregivers and families. This must be looked at.

Canada's program is exceptional and it provides many allowances. However, there are too many steps to access the program and too many people involved. The process must be simplified. There should be a handout that explains all the entitlements available and that includes phone numbers that caregivers can call to speak to workers, psychologists and other specialists. This is important.

Give me six months, and I'll develop a program for this. It's very easy.

[Andy Fillmore, Liberal, Halifax, NS]

Thank you for that.

[Richard Gauthier]

Just give me six months.

[Andy Fillmore, Liberal, Halifax, NS]

Simplifying complex processes is always a laudable goal. Of course, with add-ons over the years, these processes grow and become more and more complicated, so thank you for that.

Mr. Chair, is there another moment? How are we? I just wanted to ask if there was any feedback from any of the witnesses on the veteran and family well-being fund.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Before we get an answer to that question, Andy, I'm going to pause your time. I need to step in, as I promised at the beginning of the meeting. We need to seek unanimous consent to continue the meeting as the bells for the vote have started. Are there any objections to continuing?

Seeing none, we will proceed.

There are two minutes left in your time, sir. Go ahead.

[Andy Fillmore, Liberal, Halifax, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The well-being fund provides subsidies for projects that support veterans and their families. If any of the witnesses have any direct testimony or experience with the fund and its efficacy, or how it might be improved, we'd be grateful to hear that.

Mr. Hines.

[MGen (Ret'd) Glynne Hines]

I have had some experience with the veteran and family well-being fund since it was created, having collaborated with some of the organizations that have actually made applications. Some have been successful—therefore, getting funding—and some have been unsuccessful in getting funding but have committed to resubmitting in future years when there may be more funds available.

I have not heard or experienced any negative feedback from any of the beneficiaries of these programs. They can be very small, localized programs, and they can be bigger, national programs: things like VETS Canada that look after transition and address some of the homelessness issues, or Project Trauma Support and the Mood Disorders Society of Canada that provide in-residence programs for sufferers of PTSD and that also have a research component because the research to reinforce some of these ideas and to build on them is important.

I think, personally and from what my experience has been, that the veteran and family well-being fund is an excellent investment in, many times, grassroots-level activities that benefit the greater veteran community and benefit families and caregivers.

[Andy Fillmore, Liberal, Halifax, NS]

Thank you for that.

I'm glad that you mentioned VETS Canada. Both Mr. Samson and I have joined VETS Canada for their “boots on the ground” program here in Halifax, and they're doing wonderful work. Thank you for acknowledging them.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you.

Up next we have MP Desilets for two and a half minutes, please.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm listening to the discussions and I find them very informative.

In my opinion, the employees at Veterans Affairs Canada aren't the issue at all. I have no quarrel with them. I'm a former manager. Throughout my career, my job was to make decisions and choices, but more importantly, to take responsibility for the cost and the results.

I can see that Veterans Affairs Canada isn't achieving the desired results at this time. I don't think that this is about money. The money seems to be more or less there. There seems to be enough staff. There's a specific issue with respect to French. Given what we said earlier, I'll keep driving the point home, clearly. The issue, for me, is the political will, the path to take. The issue may be structural, in short.

Mr. Passey, I'd like to hear what you have to say. Based on your experience in this area, what should be done to change this? Is it necessary to start from scratch? What do you think should be done?

[Dr. Greg Passey]

When is the last time Veterans Affairs ever underwent a full-on audit as far as effectiveness, etc.? Again, back in 2000, General Dallaire, I and other members of the committee recommended a quality assurance program so that all these programs and the people who are implementing them are reviewed and recommendations are made for improvement.

Part of the problem, to be quite frank, is that Veterans Affairs ministers come and go fairly frequently. The issue with regard to changing the monolith of Veterans Affairs is actually the bureaucrats. They truly hold the power. Although this committee and the minister can suggest things, the implementation is done by the administrators. Unless there's clear will, they can outwait people. The next thing you know, you have another minister in place.

I think that's a disservice to veterans. We need some level of continuity so that there is political will that is enduring over a period of time to implement changes. A quality assurance program would go a long way to looking at all of these issues.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you very much, sir.

MP Blaney, you have two and a half minutes, please.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I just want to point out that the Parliamentary Budget Officer did indicate that the best way to deal with some of these significant challenges in the backlog is to hire more people. What we keep hearing from veterans and caregivers repeatedly is that when they call, they're not getting the same person to talk to every single time, that one person they trust. When we talk about the services that are provided, if there isn't that one person you trust, who you call and say, “I need help with this,” you don't get to access those services. I just want to put that on the record.

Mr. Hines, I'm going to come to you on this: One of the other things we've heard from caregivers repeatedly is that they would like their own VAC account. They would like to be able to go on, fill out information and get the support they need for themselves and the family around them. I wonder what your thoughts are on that.

[Glynne Hines]

Absolutely. I don't need to give you a long answer.

On caregivers and family members, I would just differentiate very slightly. You can have a family member who isn't the caregiver or isn't in receipt of caregiver recognition. I believe family members, whether they're caregivers or not, should be eligible for access to VAC services in their own right.

In the comments I prepared that I didn't have time to cover, that's part of the Australian model, for family members to have access.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you so much.

I'm going to go back to Dr. Passey for my last question.

You talked about quality assurance and the fact that veterans and caregivers are not able to give that meaningful feedback. When we have members of the government asking what we could do better or what is working now, what I'm hearing from you very clearly is that if there was a clear process where there could be that quality assurance and a review of the services, that would be a good system.

What is the first step we'd need to take to see that happen?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Please give a very brief answer.

[Dr. Greg Passey]

I'll be very quick.

All hospitals have to go through an accreditation program where they basically undergo a quality assurance evaluation. Veterans Affairs is in charge of funding and even providing medical treatment, assessment and so on, yet there's no quality assurance program there.

Again, back in that original committee I was on, we had a professor and that's what she did. The idea would be to hire somebody who is an expert in this and then implement a system where the department is reviewed on a regular basis, just like a hospital has to be reviewed on a regular basis in order to maintain its accreditation.

That would be a good first step, because it would give veterans, family members and caregivers an ability to provide useful feedback and hopefully to be able to implement change.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you.

Up next is MP Brassard.

Sir, we have enough time for about a two and a half minute question.

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

I'm not sure if it's going to be a question. It's more going to be a statement, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank all the witnesses for coming today and sharing, very succinctly, some of the challenges that we're facing.

I learned long ago, Mr. Chair, that a person is either accountable or they justify, and the same could be said for governments. In all the interactions that I've had in my first run as critic for Veterans Affairs, now shadow minister for Veterans Affairs, I've taken responsibility—despite the fact that I wasn't in government at the time—for what I call a generation of lies to veterans and their families by successive governments. I've done this in the past and I just did it last week in fact when we had the witnesses before us—Mr. Bruyea and others—talking about those generations of lies.

By my calculation, April 19 just passed, which means that the current Liberal government has been in power for five and a half years, yet we hear Mr. Fillmore applying blame to the previous government, not accepting any responsibility for what's gone on over the last five and a half years. We've had a majority Liberal government for four years. We've had a minority government for the last year and a half. Billions and billions of dollars have gone into Veterans Affairs Canada, yet witness after witness—including Mr. Passey today and others—have come before this committee and said that the situation in Veterans Affairs is worse today than it was five and a half years ago.

You'll have to excuse me if I take what this blame game.... I wouldn't even say it's personal, but for it's for the sake of veterans and their families. The only thing they care about is that the process is fixed. Dr. Passey hit on this, that there hasn't been that continuity. We've been through four Veterans Affairs ministers over the last five and a half years, and it's been extremely difficult to fix that process, with the political will not being there as he talked about.

Let's get into some accountability here, rather than some justification. That's exactly why I'm in this role—and I know all of you are as well. It's to make sure that we work to make the process better. Throwing money at a problem and not fixing it is not helping veterans and their families. As we've heard today, we heard last week and we hear throughout the course of our studies, the problem is getting worse. Let's work together to fix it and be accountable to Canadians and be accountable to veterans and their families.

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I apologize to our witnesses for that, but it needed to be said.

[Some hon. members]

Hear, hear!

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you, Mr. Brassard.

That does bring us to the end, and we do need to move because we have to get out to vote.

I want to thank all the witnesses who have appeared before us today.

Our next meeting is scheduled Monday, April 26, during which we will be considering the draft report on the financial health of veterans organizations. On Wednesday, April 28, we'll be starting our study on commemorations.

Thank you very much, everyone. The meeting is adjourned.