Veterans Affairs Committee on April 21st, 2021

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

I know I have only one minute left, Dr. Passey, but I want to profoundly thank you, because I know that you have a tremendous amount of respect within the veterans community because of your advocacy for them and the work that you do to try to assist them.

I started by saying that you've been here many times in front of this committee. How frustrated are you that you never see changes happening?

[Dr. Greg Passey]

I can't even put it into words. I'm the tip of the iceberg, though, compared to my veterans. I mean, they're living it; I'm having to deal with it, so it's different.

It's so easy to correct. It just takes some political will, and we need to get some of the VAC senior bureaucrats out of the way, because they seem to be the resistance.

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

That's a common theme that we've been hearing. We had Mr. Bruyea last week, and he and others are saying the exact same thing.

Thank you, Dr. Passey. I really appreciate your time.

[Dr. Greg Passey]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you.

Next is MP Fillmore for six minutes, please.

[Andy Fillmore, Liberal, Halifax, NS]

Thank you, Chair.

I give tremendous thanks to the witnesses today for coming and sharing their wisdom and their experiences.

I'd like to focus on the caregiver recognition benefit. You've each shared in your own way your role, and Ms. Bart really painted a picture of what it means to be a caregiver.

We heard earlier on this committee from many caregivers and veteran supporters, but I'm thinking in particular today of Lieutenant-Commander Gerry White, who's here in Halifax, a veteran of the army and of the RCMP. He described to this committee that his wife was his support through his release and his reintegration into civilian life. She supports him through his contacts in his tireless devotion to helping veterans in this community, and she supported him even for his appearance at this committee, which was a tremendous burden for him, draining for him, but he did it anyway.

Thank you for adding to the committee's understanding of that burden. I want to say that there's joy as well, as Ms. Bart mentioned, that comes from being a caregiver, but clearly it's hard work.

We see from the stats that the caregiver benefit was received by a little over 1,100 people this year, and if I just take that number—it's not very scientific—and divide it per capita across the country, it means that about 30 people in Nova Scotia will draw that benefit. Well, there are thousands of veterans just in Halifax, so obviously it's not reaching as far as we would all like it to.

I really want to ask for your vision, your dream, for what this benefit could be, and I guess specifically what changes you might recommend. Mr. Gauthier recommended something very specific: increase it to $1,500, tax-free, but if you could help the committee understand what we can take away from this to make that benefit reach more people, I think we'd all be very grateful.

Each of you has this experience, and I'm sure you have things to say. Let's just get into it.

[Richard Gauthier]

A $1,000 benefit is simply not enough, given the task at hand. As Ms. Bart said earlier, it's a huge burden. The amount should be increased to $1,500.

We must not forget the suffering of the spouses of military members who were called to serve on missions. Today, they have the moral and physical responsibility for their veteran spouses. If you do the math correctly, it seems to me that there is a shortfall.

The way to award these amounts is very simple. You have already set up tables with the benefit amounts based on disability. Once a veteran reaches a certain percentage, the amount should be automatic. I have reached a disability threshold of almost 100% but I do not have access to this benefit. It seems to me that, as you pass each disability threshold, it should be automatic.

That's the problem with Veterans Affairs Canada: when veterans reach a threshold or a percentage of mental or physical disability, they have to guess what they are entitled to. It's not supposed to be like that. As soon as they reach a 70% disability threshold, they should look at the table and see how much they are entitled to. If they reach the 100% disability threshold, it should become automatic. That's what needs to be in place to speed up the process.

I have lost a number of friends. They have committed suicide. That's why I'm bringing this up today.

[Andy Fillmore, Liberal, Halifax, NS]

All right. Thank you.

[Richard Gauthier]

Thank you very much, Mr. Fillmore.

[Andy Fillmore, Liberal, Halifax, NS]

We have maybe a couple of minutes left, Chair, but I think Dr. Passey has something more to say.

[Dr. Greg Passey]

I just wanted to quickly address the whole issue of criteria. It seems that Veterans Affairs has gone towards the disability tax credit criteria. They've made it very difficult for individuals to actually be eligible for the criteria.

It's interesting. In the U.S. they have what's called the shut-in allowance. For anyone who has difficulty in being able to get out of the house and shop and do all those sorts of things, they actually have an award for that, which is somewhat similar to our caregiver allowance.

I think we need to relook at the criteria and make them a little more flexible and a little more appliable for our veterans. They've served. They've suffered. The caregivers suffered while they were serving, and the members suffer as well, when they retire and become veterans. We have to look at the criteria for sure.

Thank you.

[Andy Fillmore, Liberal, Halifax, NS]

Thank you, Dr. Passey.

I think we have a minute left, Mr. Hines, if you want to add your piece.

Thank you.

[MGen (Ret'd) Glynne Hines]

Thanks very much, Mr. Chair.

In the end, I think we have to be clear on what this benefit is about. Is it a token, a $1,000 token, to somebody who is having to carry on with the care and support of the veteran? Is it to really compensate them for the time, the difficulty, the loss of employment and the loss of income associated with being a full-time or near full-time caregiver to a veteran?

If it's the latter, we are failing miserably to do that. We have people working 20 hours a day at their day jobs and the caregiver responsibilities they've taken on, or they're giving up their income, their earning ability, so that they can carry on with that moral and lifelong responsibility they've taken on in being married to or supporting a veteran. So—

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you very much. I'm sorry. That's time.

Up next is MP Desilets for six minutes, please.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon, everyone.

I want to thank all our guests for taking part in this process.

Mr. Gauthier, my first question is for you.

First, it's an honour for me to speak to a member of the Royal 22nd Regiment. I recently had the pleasure of commemorating the Royal 22nd Regiment's participation in the Battle of Vimy Ridge, one of the many battlefields where the regiment distinguished itself.

We had the opportunity last week to speak to Minister MacAulay in person at a committee meeting last Monday. He confirmed the inequity in the quality and timeliness of services in French at Veterans Affairs Canada compared to the services provided in English.

In your years of experience in providing assistance and support to veterans, have you seen a difference in the quality of services? If so, in your opinion, has it had an impact? We're talking about assistance for veterans, but their families are also affected. Does the fact that they aren't receiving the services that they need have an impact?

[Richard Gauthier]

The French-language services are insufficient. The ombudsman told me that there was a lack of French-speaking staff. He has been telling me this for 22 years. The department has missed the boat. You asked me whether there has been an impact. There has certainly been an impact, because people are dying by suicide. I started this group for exactly that reason. So far, in the 20 months since I started my group, I've saved four people from suicide. People often reach this point because of the slowness of the services, which they have spent too long waiting for.

I can confirm that there has been an impact. Based on my own experience, I can confirm that the process is very slow. It took 36 months to hear back from the department about my application for an allowance to have a caregiver in the home. That's unbelievable, 36 months is just crazy. In fact, the process took even longer because I didn't know what procedure to follow. It took a total of seven years for my application to ultimately be denied, even though I had documents showing my eligibility. In addition, the lawyer, Mr. Bastarache, was outraged at the decision and the length of the process. I'm not the only one saying this. Many, many veterans are in this situation.

There's an urgent need to hire French-speaking staff. I've been told the same thing for over 20 years. The staff at the ombudsman's office told me this last month. I don't know how things are going on the English side. However, we have English-speaking friends who work in other professions. They say that the process is much faster in English. Some francophones speak English very well and make their requests in English, because the process isn't fast enough in French.

The case managers have too much power. It's unbelievable. They discourage people. I'm speaking from personal experience, based on the accounts gathered in my group. In the Quebec City offices, and also a little bit in Montreal, these managers don't encourage veterans to assert their rights. The case managers advise people not to submit applications. The managers tell people that their applications will be denied. I think that the job descriptions should be reviewed from the bottom up.

There should be a direct help line for people, especially family caregivers and people working in the health care field, such as Ms. Boutette. These people can't go through all the administrative levels to resolve an issue. It doesn't make sense, as Ms. Boutette explained earlier. It's important to go directly to the source.

If a veteran goes through all the levels and still hasn't received a response 16 months later, the veteran may have already died by suicide. Several of my friends have died by suicide, including one who jumped off a bridge, because it takes too long to receive services given the lack of francophone resources. It's absolutely appalling to see this. That's why I invested my money to save my friends. I'll never leave a colleague on a battlefield. I won't let them die alone. That's why I stepped in and started this group.

I would like the support of Veterans Affairs Canada to ensure that the department speeds up the process for accessing services.

Thank you, Mr. Desilets.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you for your comments, Mr. Gauthier.

Mr. Passey, is it possible to make a connection between a veteran's level of distress and the slowness of the services, whether this stems from a lack of French-speaking staff or other causes?

Do you think that these two things are correlated?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Please give a brief response.

[Dr. Greg Passey]

Yes. I absolutely agree with that. The longer this takes, the more stress it creates for the veteran and family members—absolutely. I would add that this is not only a benefit for the caregivers. You have to realize that if the caregivers aren't there and veterans end up in long-term care facilities, just think about the cost that is per month and how much we're actually saving by having them stay in their own homes.

The lack of resources in Veterans Affairs and unnecessary denials are creating huge stress and suicidal potential in our veterans. Absolutely.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you very much.

Up next is MP Blaney, please, for six minutes.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all the folks who are here testifying.

If I could speak with you first, Dr. Passey.... First of all, I don't have a copy of the brief. I'm assuming that it's going through translation, but I just want to make sure that we do get that at some point.

One of the things that you talked about was how long the claims are taking to be approved. What I've heard from multiple veterans is that it's starting to feel to them like they're applying to insurance where they're being forced to prove in great detail repetitively, again and again, what the challenges are and what they're facing. It doesn't feel like a service provision where you go and say, “I served the country. Here I am on this side. What can we do to make my life work with all of the challenges that I have?”

Of course, we hear from both caregivers and veterans that they're often retelling their stories again and again, how frustrating that is because it feels like no one on the other side knows, and how it is retraumatizing, especially for some folks, some of the veterans who have huge psychological issues. This can mean a couple of weeks of the caregiver's having to give a higher level of support.

I'm just wondering if you could talk about that and the impact that it has—because it is a study on caregivers. What is the impact on the caregivers, and how does that impact, in turn, the veteran?

[Dr. Greg Passey]

That's a good question.

Let me just say that there are some very good individuals with Veterans Affairs. I have to say that. I've had that experience. I've also had experiences with people that have been terrible. A lack of a quality assurance program and a lack of the ability for the veterans to be able to provide feedback means that the system will never ever change.

It's a huge issue for all our veterans. Trust is a huge issue for all of our veterans. The idea that their word is being disbelieved or the fact that they're having to provide excessive evidence to support their position, again, creates a lot of angst, a lot of anxiety and a lot of irritability. This can come out as verbal aggression, etc. About 49% or 50% of people, our veterans with PTSD, will lose their relationship as a result of their symptomatology, the stress that's there constantly. The stress that's put on the caregiver.... Imagine feeling responsible for the person you love so much but not having the power to change anything. It's the absolute worst position to be in—huge responsibility and no power to change it.

The thing is that Veterans Affairs exists because our veterans have served the country. We're actually the employers of Veterans Affairs, but we're not seen that way. We're seen as being dependent. We're disempowered, and the delays and unnecessary denials are having a very tragic effect on family members, caregivers and the veterans themselves. We're going to lose a lot of people if it doesn't change.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you, Dr. Passey.

I'm going to come back to you again, and I want to thank you for acknowledging the great workers who are in VAC. I agree with you; there are amazing workers. I think one of the biggest challenges is that they're being put into a box where it is like these outputs are more important than the human connection, and that does concern me.

My next question to you is really.... First of all, I just want to acknowledge that the vast majority of caregivers are women, and women's work continues to be undervalued again and again in our system. I think that when we look at $1,000 a month for women who often have given up big chunks of their careers because they believe in the service that their partner provided, we need to acknowledge that and understand how we're valuing that.

My bigger concern on this issue is that caregivers, families and loved ones are being asked to treat and manage PTSD with no training and no support. I think about listening to them talk about modifying all this behaviour and trying to create a safe space in a world that is often very triggering.

I'm just wondering what the impact on the family is. You talked about how many partnerships are ending because of this. What is the impact on the family, and how does the lack of knowledge affect that? What are the tools that would be more supportive to caregivers?

[Dr. Greg Passey]

You can actually develop what's called vicarious PTSD as a result of being exposed over long periods of time to individuals who have untreated PTSD and are very symptomatic. Family members, that can be the kids, that can be the caregivers, etc., can actually develop their own mental health issues. There's no way around that.

I know when I was still working at the B.C. Operational Stress Injury Clinic, we had a group program that attempted to address this. We had the spouses come in, and we tried to give them some tools and stuff, but it's difficult to understand and treat this disorder when you're a professional. As a layperson watching a loved one go through this, it can be quite devastating, because you personalize what's occurring and you think that it's your fault that your partner is blowing up or whatever, and it typically has nothing to do with you. It's because they've been triggered. We need better education. We need better resources available for family members and, particularly, the caregivers.

In caregiving at this level, professionals have difficulty with it, and we're expecting amateurs, lay people, to do this. I think the caregiver allowance.... If it's $4,000 a month for someone to be in a long-term care facility and we're only paying a caregiver $1,000, I think that's crazy. They need better support financially, emotionally and professionally to do this type of support.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you.