Veterans Affairs Committee on May 12th, 2021

[Nathan Svenson]

Some of the limitations that were in that study have been overcome and addressed in the study in the United States, so that's something we could go into, but as a general point, in the United States, Australia and other areas that have adopted their own standards and created policies around this, they are the ones delivering health care directly to veterans, whereas in Canada we rely on agreement across provinces.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Can we check with those 13 schools to find out whether they would agree on those now?

[Nathan Svenson]

I don't have any confirmation that there would be agreement today where there wasn't then.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

That's a question that we could bring forward.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you. Sorry, Darrell.

Guys, I have to be stingy with time today to get everything in. I apologize.

Up next, for six minutes, we have MP Desilets.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon to my colleagues and the witnesses, who I'd like to thank.

I think all of the witnesses will agree that when it comes to veterans' services, Canada would do well to draw on certain examples, and the Australian Department of Veterans Affairs seems to be one of them. Based on what was said earlier, I get the impression that the assistance provided by service dogs is really valuable and that it's worth a lot. It's a way to help veterans with post-traumatic stress and reduce the use of medication. The Australian department seems to understand this, because they have a psychiatric service dog program.

Mrs. Garrett-Baird, this program offers full reimbursement for costs associated with dogs that are not only trained, but also certified. Do you think Veterans Affairs Canada is considering moving towards full reimbursement of the a veteran's costs?

[Crystal Garrett-Baird]

As we mentioned, we are continuing to follow what's happening with our allies, including largely the United States Department of Veterans Affairs and the Australian Department of Veterans' Affairs, to help inform where we want to go in the future, because, as noted, there has been research done. We have worked to develop consensus for national standards, and we've made some progress, but we still need that underpinning of research to really assist with ensuring that what we're doing is the right thing for veterans.

I will ask Dr. Heber to speak to some of the issues that we see with service dogs. They assist with managing symptoms. They are not a treatment in their own right.

Dr. Heber.

[Dr. Alexandra Heber, Chief of Psychiatry, Health Professionals Division, Department of Veterans Affairs]

Thank you very much, Crystal.

Let me add a couple of things. First of all, it is true that having a psychiatric service dog does not in any way have the evidence behind it to call this a treatment or a therapy, in fact. We consider it more as what we might call an adjunctive treatment or a complementary treatment to the evidence-based treatments for PTSD, major depression or whatever condition the dog is helping the veteran with. I think that's the first important point.

The second point I want to make, though, is that this issue is complex. It is not a benign issue. Let me tell you one anecdote that happened. When I was still in uniform back in 2014, I was given the service dog file, and I started contacting the service dog organizations in Canada to find out what they were doing and to talk to them a little bit about their programs.

One of the workers I spoke to told me a story. They had trained a service dog for a veteran or a serving member. A person had taken that service dog home, and they usually do follow-ups for a while to see how the person is doing. When they went to the person's home, they found that the service dog had not been fed and that the person was very incapacitated. I wonder if it was a major depression. The person was not able to get out of bed. They weren't taking care of themselves very well, and they weren't able to care for this dog. I asked, “What did you do?” She said, “We took the dog back.” Of course, my next question was, “What happened to that person who was left there in the home?” That, I don't know; she wasn't able to tell me that.

I think it just illustrates that this is not a simple issue. Having a dog also means that the person has to be in a stage of recovery where they can also take care of a dog, take care of that responsibility. I think there are a number of well-being issues that sometimes veterans have that may compromise their ability to do this. It's not a benign procedure to give somebody a dog. I think there are a lot of issues to be considered here.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

I understand very well, Dr. Heber. However, in a way, isn't it a follow-up problem? What do you think about that?

Do you think these animals meet the standards when they come to people's homes?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Give a brief answer, please.

[Dr. Alexandra Heber]

Again, I was also involved in the beginning when we set that up with the CGSB to try to develop national standards. I will tell you that one of the reasons we did that was that there was so much variation in training among the different organizations. In fact, I can't answer your question, because I can't say that there's a standard way that service dogs are trained in Canada.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you. I'm afraid that's time.

Up next, we have MP Blaney for six minutes, please.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, everyone, for being here and providing your testimony today.

It's a lot to take in. I heard one of the witnesses saying that doing the right thing for the veterans has to be a priority, and I absolutely agree with that.

I have to say that the lack of national standards has provided this opportunity for things to keep falling apart. What we see are multiple areas and different ways of training across the country, so there is no consistency. We see veterans trying to get the supports they need and not necessarily getting appropriately trained dogs. We also see that they often cannot take them into public places because they're not considered real support dogs. We know they can't get them on a plane.

I've dealt with this personally in my riding. A veteran who had a service dog could not find a home because there were no homes that would allow him to bring his dog because it wasn't certified as a service dog. This meant that he was “choosing” to be homeless because he could not function without having the support dog with him every step of the way.

When I listen to this, I respect that this is a complicated matter. I understand that most things are complicated, but the problem is that there are no national standards, which means that nobody is held to account and veterans don't get what they desperately need.

I have so many questions, but the first thing is with regard to the Canadian General Standards Board. What I think I heard was that they had a plan to make a study, but they didn't have a consensus. I would like to hear a bit more about what the top concerns were, maybe even just the top three concerns. I understand that they broadened the study, so it became more complex.

I'm just wondering, and I'm sure you won't have an opinion about this, does it make sense to stay within the single lane, to at least get that first level done before we start moving on to the next thing?

Can anyone answer that? I'm sorry, but I don't know whom to direct it to. I'll let you tell me.

[Crystal Garrett-Baird]

I can start, and then I'll turn it over to Nathan for further comment around the specifics.

As you noted, and as I noted in my remarks, Veterans Affairs Canada previously had a contract with the Canadian General Standards Board to establish a set of national standards and provide assurance that the service dogs being provided to veterans are properly trained and meet standardized behaviour requirements.

However, as noted, in April 2018, the board notified members of the technical committee that it had withdrawn its intent to produce a national standard for service dogs in Canada because there was no consensus among the committee members that the standard could be achieved. As a result, the initiative to develop a national standard was discontinued.

Meanwhile, we continue to be an active player, with research and funding in areas like Wounded Warriors Canada. I'll ask—

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Okay, let's talk about that.

We're looking for national standards. If VAC is going to work with Wounded Warriors Canada on their service dog program, could we not look at how to support them in setting and supporting some sort of national standards that we could give to another board to review?

It just feels like it's getting more and more confusing. I heard what Dr. Heber said earlier, and I absolutely understand. However, with no national standards, when a veteran gets a dog, there is no process for the normal check-ins. This is the gap.

What I hear is, “Oh, we have a tax credit.” Well, that's fantastic. Who is actually taking it? Could you guys give us the numbers? How many people have actually accessed that tax credit? The other number I would love to see is how many people tried to access that but couldn't, and what the reasons were. Do we have any information on that?

I guess there are two questions. First, since they're already receiving support from VAC, could Wounded Warriors Canada be a venue to start setting some of those national standards, even preliminary ones, for us to push up the line and see how it goes? That's one question.

Second, do we know how many people actually got the tax credit? I talked earlier about a veteran who had a service dog and was homeless. He did not have thousands and thousands of dollars to put forward to get a dog. He lost his dog not too long ago. Who is accessing the tax credit? How many people have been denied? Could we get those numbers?

Those are my two questions. I hope they were clear.

[Crystal Garrett-Baird]

Yes, certainly. I'll touch on a couple of things and then turn it over to Nathan.

With respect to the tax credit, that is delivered by the Canada Revenue Agency, so we do not have the information readily available. However, we can follow up to see if that would be available.

On the second note, Wounded Warriors Canada has actually worked with a group of service providers and health care providers to develop a service dog prescriber guideline.

I'll turn it over to Nathan to provide some additional details.

[Nathan Svenson]

Thank you.

Wounded Warriors has developed its own criteria for the organizations that want to become registered providers through the Wounded Warriors program, as well as standards for instructors for training programs, and guidelines for prescribers too. They are doing their best to actively fill this space right now, while we don't have national standards. In a sense, that will demonstrate the ability of a governance layer to coordinate the services across service dog providers. We would be interested in that, and that project is ongoing, in development. They've been meeting with us and reporting back on their progress, so we're interested to see the success of that program.

I would also comment, if I have a moment—

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Comment very briefly, please.

[Nathan Svenson]

It's interesting that for each of the studies that have taken place in the different countries, in order for them to study the effects, they essentially have to come up with their own mini-set of standards to make sure that the measurements they collect are consistent. We can look at some of the aspects of the U.S. study. I won't go into it, but they were the most rigorous of all the studies that have been put on the table, in terms of developing consistent measures across their service dogs. I'll stop there.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

That's time.

Up next, we have MP Doherty for five minutes, please.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

As I sit here, I'm getting more and more frustrated. Every day, I get a phone call or a message from a veteran who is struggling. Every day, I get a phone call or a message from a family member who has lost a loved one. I've seen first-hand the impacts that service dogs can have on our veterans and our first responders, and I find it absolutely mind-boggling that those who have been tasked to look after the veterans who have served our country come before this committee and point fingers—it's the provinces or....

Ms. Heber, your testimony about a veteran whom one of your colleagues found in obvious distress, and you couldn't find out how that veteran was.... This is unbelievable. It's been four years. We have countries that are doing yeoman service and that we can learn from. We have Wounded Warriors Canada, which is developing its own standards, and yet.... It is so frustrating. Now we're seeing first-hand why, when our veterans are dealing with VAC, they get this cold response back. It's absolutely shocking for me. Seriously, we have to be better. It's just unbelievable. Surely we have enough well-educated people.

Ms. Heber, you have a ton of degrees and diplomas and certificates behind you, and I'm sure all of our witnesses are from learned educational facilities. Surely we can come up with standards or agree to some standards so that we can supply our veterans with the much-needed support. Wouldn't you all agree, whether it is a prescribed treatment that you approve of, or maybe a security blanket....? I'm not sure, but the feeling I got was that that's what was being implied. If it saves veterans from taking their life, shouldn't we be doing everything in our power to find a way to supply that? Shouldn't we be doing everything in our power to make sure that our veterans aren't ending up on the street, homeless, that they have all the supports they need? I'm staggered at your testimony today.

Ms. Garrett-Baird, how long have you been with VAC?

[Crystal Garrett-Baird]

I've been with Veterans Affairs Canada now for over 15 years.

[Todd Doherty, Conservative, Cariboo—Prince George, BC]

Mr. Svenson.