Evidence of meeting #31 for Veterans Affairs in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was dogs.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

William Webb  As an Individual
Marc Lapointe  Certified Trainer, Meliora Service Dogs
Joanne Moss  Chief Executive Officer, The Canadian Foundation for Animal-Assisted Support Services
Carl Fleury  Meliora Service Dogs

5 p.m.

Certified Trainer, Meliora Service Dogs

Marc Lapointe

Could I add a small thing on that, please?

5 p.m.

NDP

Rachel Blaney NDP North Island—Powell River, BC

Yes, please do.

5 p.m.

Certified Trainer, Meliora Service Dogs

Marc Lapointe

I travel across Canada in my van. I'm in my van right now. What Bill mentioned is true. In Alberta and B.C., when I was there last winter, I was checked with my service dog, and because I'm from Ontario, they said I couldn't come. That's ridiculous. I'm travelling. We need to fix that problem.

June 14th, 2021 / 5 p.m.

NDP

Rachel Blaney NDP North Island—Powell River, BC

I agree, and that's what I was going to ask Bill to talk about as well, because that is the reality right now. When you move from one part of Canada to another, the standards are different.

Here you are as a veteran. You have your dog with you to provide the standard of care that you require to live the life you want to. You testified earlier about being able to go off antipsychotic drugs. I think that is amazing.

I wonder if you could talk about what changes you see when you move from province to province. You talked about moving to British Columbia. What was one of the biggest changes that you noted?

5:05 p.m.

As an Individual

William Webb

Denial of public access is the biggest one across the board, whether it be government, civic or provincial buildings.

I appreciate the separation between federal and provincial jurisdictions, but we have federal members of Parliament sitting on organizations that are pushing those organizations' agenda to write policy that also now affects the Competition Act, because if you're a service dog provider and you don't belong to ADI in B.C., you can't practise your position. You're put at a disadvantage.

Because this is all human rights law, there's no money in it, so lawyers aren't going to get involved. In the end, that leaves the veteran being abused by the system consistently.

5:05 p.m.

NDP

Rachel Blaney NDP North Island—Powell River, BC

In your opinion, what needs to happen at VAC in order for veterans across Canada to safely and securely obtain a service dog?

5:05 p.m.

As an Individual

William Webb

I definitely need VAC to stay out of the development of the standards process. Veterans Affairs should support it wholeheartedly but take an independent, outside approach, because service dog organizations have made huge inroads to push their agenda within the department itself. It's rampant. I run into it all the time. That's why Veterans Affairs needs to stay out of it and stay completely impartial in the process of a standard.

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bryan May

Thank you. I'm afraid that's time.

Up next for five minutes, we have MP Ruff, please.

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Alex Ruff Conservative Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON

Thank you, Chair.

First off, I give my personal thanks to you, Bill and Marc. My assumption is that Carl is a former member of the Canadian Forces too, just based on his stellar haircut.

I spent 25 years in the infantry myself and only retired two years ago. I know where you're coming from. I want to thank you for your service.

I'm fortunate. I'm not dealing with some of the challenges many others have, but a lot of my friends and former colleagues do suffer and are dependent upon their service dogs to support them. As you stated, for some of them.... What standard to they meet? There is no standard here.

I was fortunate to be part of this committee when I first got elected. I haven't been on it in the last almost eight months. I'm glad to be back. I'm a little shocked to see some of the challenges we're facing here.

I want to go back to you, Sergeant Webb, on some of your comments. I totally agree. I think we need to keep the politicians and even the government out of the business of deciding standards. That isn't for elected officials.

What organization...? Do you guys have a suggestion? How do we select that process to set these standards? I want you to elaborate a bit more on that, Sergeant Webb.

5:05 p.m.

As an Individual

William Webb

The process has already started with the HRSO, which the Canadian Association for Animal-Assisted Support Services is involved in. There's an independent body.

I want to say that Joanne Moss's organization, which is completely independent, gets attacked by industry all the time for the work they're trying to do in staying impartial. The independent study is happening right now to try to put together a national standard. That just needs to be allowed to happen.

I challenge all of you to go on and google three service dog organizations' websites. Look for a copy of their standard. It will not be there. The only published standard available is through Courageous Companions. It's the only one that has its standard up on its website. Nobody else does. They talk about standards, but they won't make them public. The only publicly available standard right now is from one organization. It's not a national standard, but it's published. It's there so people can see it.

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

Alex Ruff Conservative Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON

Yes, I totally agree with that. I'm a big believer in the transparency side of it.

The question I'm going to ask of all three witnesses, really quickly here, is this: How do we move forward? Again, I've heard from friends of mine, former colleagues, who are frustrated with this lack of a decision or the slow pace in moving forward on this issue. To me, this isn't rocket science. This is something we should be able to solve quite quickly. It's not going to be perfect and we're still going to have challenges, but we need to get these national standards established.

In your view, how long should we take to steer whatever independent organization forward and get a standard established, so that this is common and we're not running into these mobility and service challenges across the country?

I can start with you, Marc.

5:10 p.m.

Certified Trainer, Meliora Service Dogs

Marc Lapointe

That's a tough question to answer. Obviously I'm going to preach for my choir, because my standards are really high. I go with safety. Safety is across the board, as well as professionalism, etiquette and things like that. We're not just strolling with a service dog. This service dog needs to be invisible to the public and not become an obstruction.

It's hard for me to tell you who to go see to get some advice. I would be honest and say Ms. Moss. Go and see her. She's impartial. She's been doing this for 20 years. I guess that's the solution right now. She's been implicated in so much stuff. She's aware of standards.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

Alex Ruff Conservative Bruce—Grey—Owen Sound, ON

It's not so much about who, but how long?

To me, some of these standards do exist. How long before we get this established?

5:10 p.m.

Certified Trainer, Meliora Service Dogs

Marc Lapointe

It's not rocket science, as you said, sir. It's not difficult. We just sit down and say that these are the procedures. Are they safe? Yes, they are. Then we have to train people to make sure that these standards [Technical difficulty—Editor] and answered at the end of the day. It's not just saying, “You're my buddy; you're good.” No, it doesn't work like that.

5:10 p.m.

As an Individual

William Webb

That's a long-winded officer's answer, Marc.

5:10 p.m.

Certified Trainer, Meliora Service Dogs

Marc Lapointe

It happens.

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bryan May

I'm afraid that's time, guys.

I see, Mrs. Moss, you have your hand up. Is this in relation to this question?

5:10 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, The Canadian Foundation for Animal-Assisted Support Services

Joanne Moss

Yes, it is.

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bryan May

We'll have to come back to you.

5:10 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, The Canadian Foundation for Animal-Assisted Support Services

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Bryan May

Up next we have MP Fillmore for five minutes, please.

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

Andy Fillmore Liberal Halifax, NS

I'll start by saying thanks to the witnesses and to those who have served in the CAF, and to Mrs. Moss for your service as well with dogs.

I want to start by chatting with you, Mr. Webb. I don't know if you prefer Bill, Sergeant Webb or Mr. Webb. If you give an indication, I'll follow that.

You mentioned a few things, and I know it's all clear in your head, but if you could help it get clear in our heads, that would be wonderful.

You mentioned that there are predatory trainers out there. You said that we've gone from eight dog training providers to 132, and that gives us some indication that there is some interest in the dollars. You also said that the training that your dog received is not accepted by the B.C. government for transit operators and that kind of thing. What I'm trying to understand—and forgive me—is whether the problem is that the training your dog received wasn't good enough or that provincial governments and other organizations don't accept it because it doesn't have the right stamp on it.

5:10 p.m.

As an Individual

William Webb

Exactly. It doesn't have the right stamp.

The service dog act in B.C. does not measure outcomes of training or standards of training. They only have what they call the “public access test”. They don't assess or look at the organization that I got my dog from and the standard that my dog was trained to. It's all about industry infiltrating government policy by being in the right place at the right time, by having members of Parliament sit on boards as active treasurers or chairs to push that organization's agenda. That's what's happened in B.C., Alberta and Nova Scotia.

I'm not afraid as an end-user—I'm not a trainer but an end-user—to call a spade a spade. When it comes to pushing their agenda, the industry is extremely predatory, and they'll do whatever it takes to push their agenda. One provider specifically, and that's ADI/IGDF, will push hard for their brand. They're affiliated with Wounded Warriors and they have inroads with Veterans Affairs and provincial government staffers. They're everywhere, and it's wrong. It needs to stop, and not just with them. All providers need to just step out.

Veterans Affairs can support that by suggesting to all the providers to send in all their documentation to the human resources standards organizations—their standards, documents, training manuals, all of that—and let them put something comprehensive together under one roof. If they have all the information from all the providers, the process would probably go pretty quickly.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

Andy Fillmore Liberal Halifax, NS

You feel that the Canada General Standards Board's attempt failed because there were some predatory training organizations.

5:15 p.m.

As an Individual

William Webb

Yes. At the same time as B.C. was doing work on their act, there were members sitting on the CGSB who did not disclose to CGSB that B.C. was working on developing an act, and vice versa. They did not tell the B.C. government that they were working with CGSB to develop a national standard. There's a huge conflict there with being transparent in the process. If you look at the members that were a part of those organizations, both CGSB and the provincial government, you see 95% of them were all aligned with one organization, whether directly or indirectly. Where's the fairness in that? There isn't, because the end-user suffers.