Evidence of meeting #4 for Veterans Affairs in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was chair.
A video is available from Parliament.
1:35 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bryan May
Thank you very much.
MP Blaney, go ahead for two and a half minutes, please.
1:35 p.m.
NDP
Rachel Blaney NDP North Island—Powell River, BC
Thank you, Chair.
My question is for Ms. Weatherbie.
One of the things that have concerned me—and I've asked the minister about this several times—is the idea of hiring temporary workers when I think there is a need for permanent workers. I'm just wondering about what's happening with that, and your opinion on those issues.
1:35 p.m.
President, Members, Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada
That is my focus here today. Yes, we're hiring and the training has been going on continually for the last two years. That being said, the processes have also changed. I see the two of them coming together, with the IT help that is going on with PFL and all the other components of new strategies in the processing, but the problem is that we're getting them together. They're coming together, but then in two or two and a half years, the temporary people are gone, so we're back to where we started.
Five years from today if those temps leave, we'll be back where we started, with backlogs occurring again.
1:35 p.m.
NDP
Rachel Blaney NDP North Island—Powell River, BC
Thank you. That is so helpful.
I want to thank you, Mr. Walbourne, for talking, on the defence side, about more work being done prior to military folks being released. I am sad to say that this is something I heard from you in the defence committee many years ago, so it's unfortunate that this is still something not solved.
I'm just wondering if you could speak a little about that and about how that would work post-transition. My concern would be, if work is done while people are still in the military but then other issues arise when they leave, how those post-transition concerns would be addressed and whether Veterans Affairs would work with the Department of National Defence to make that a smooth transition and would be allowed to continue to work on someone's file and modify it, depending on their need.
1:35 p.m.
As an Individual
Okay.
First of all, there are a couple of things. The 80% target for 16 weeks only starts when Veterans Affairs Canada has a complete file, so we need to know that.
Second, someone talked about raising the quality of the output. I think you can only do that by raising the quality of the input. Up front, the Department of National Defence determines attribution of service. That's the card that pre-approves. The determination is made by Veterans Affairs Canada about the level of service for compensation.
To your question about late manifesters, there are always going to be late manifesters. I've always said that they will always need an arbitration arm at Veterans Affairs Canada to deal with that. People leaving the military with PTSD can have no symptoms today, but three years from now their world can be completely different. There are always going to be late manifesters.
However, as others have said, we have a track and trend of the types of activities these members partake in and the outcomes of those activities. We're data rich and knowledge poor.
1:35 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bryan May
Thank you very much, sir.
Now we'll move over to MP Brassard for five minutes, please.
1:35 p.m.
Conservative
John Brassard Conservative Barrie—Innisfil, ON
Thank you, and with apologies to everyone, I'm not going to be able to get to you all. I have lots of questions, but I have to focus and target my questions to specific individuals. One of them is Mr. Giroux.
Mr. Giroux, you spoke about the report that you did. It was quite concerning to me to hear you say that improvements to improve this backlog, although publicly being exalted by the government, weren't actually shared with you and your department in coming up with the recommendations and the assessment that you did.
Is it unusual, in your experience, that the government would talk about these issues publicly, yet not share that information with your department?
1:35 p.m.
Parliamentary Budget Officer, Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer
Yes, that would be unusual. I'm not saying necessarily that the department is wilfully not sharing information with me. They may be under the impression that there are improvements being made that we have not taken into consideration, while we have indeed taken them into consideration. What would not be unusual is for one of my reports to irritate a government department or a government institution. That has happened before and I suspect it will happen in the future.
We asked the Department of Veterans Affairs for information before preparing the report. We discussed the main thrust of our conclusions, and they had opportunities to correct some of the misunderstandings that could have arisen. We did not hear about that in the course of drafting this report, so I'm a bit surprised to hear, after the report is tabled, that there are things we have not taken into account.
1:40 p.m.
Conservative
John Brassard Conservative Barrie—Innisfil, ON
I am too, quite frankly, Mr. Giroux, because some of those things or the improvements that they're proposing to make could in fact—but we don't know based on your report—improve the conditions of these backlogs and reduce them, or in some cases cause them to be greater. I'm concerned about that.
Mr. Walbourne, you and I have had lots of conversations over the years. My fear is that we're going to be in this situation in five years if things don't improve, or 10 years if things don't improve. People versus process, are you confident at all that we can get this right, Mr. Walbourne?
1:40 p.m.
As an Individual
No, I think we're going to be having the same conversation in the next three, five, seven or 10 years. We have to come to the realization that we've poured millions and millions of dollars and hundreds and hundreds of people into this system, saying we're going to eliminate the backlog. Where's the backlog? It still exists.
I don't know what you need to do to get the point across. Has anyone stopped to look at the process? If bad information and miscommunication are being poured into the front end of the system, you can imagine what the reaction at the back is going to be.
I have empathy for Veterans Affairs Canada, having worked there. They're a great group of people. I'm telling you, these folks are focused on getting it right every day for the veterans, but they're given such a labyrinth to walk through that's so complicated and complex.
I'll give you a quick example: the Veterans Hiring Act. A veteran, a transitioning member, may have an opportunity to be hired by the Government of Canada, but the file bounces back and forth in the department for months at a time and opportunities are lost. We talk about a backlog of files. We need to stop doing that. This is a group of people. These are not files and numbers. Mr. Scott is sitting right here. He's one of these people we're talking about. We're sitting around talking about how much money we can shove into this and how much effort, but we don't stop and give an honest look at the process. We have to get there at some point in time. It's essential.
1:40 p.m.
Conservative
John Brassard Conservative Barrie—Innisfil, ON
I appreciate your candour, Mr. Walbourne. You're always frank.
Mr. Scott, with that level of frustration that's happening across the country with veterans, we're seeing increases in lawsuits. Please give the committee a sense of the level of despair, how dire the situation is within the veteran community as it relates to the processing or the lack of processing of these claims and that frustration they're feeling in their families as well.
1:40 p.m.
As an Individual
Throwing money at a human problem will not work. I agree with the comments being made here. We could be talking about this, and we will be talking about this, in the years to come. I propose that a Veterans Affairs royal commission occur here in Canada to look at the systemic issues. Throwing money will not solve this. We will be talking about this next year and the year after that. A Veterans Affairs royal commission would totally open up the lid on this, so that we could work together as a country to support our veterans.
Thank you.
1:40 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bryan May
Thank you.
We are going now to MP Casey.
I have to warn you that your time is cut down to about two or maybe two and a half minutes to give us the latitude to deal with committee business.
1:40 p.m.
Liberal
Sean Casey Liberal Charlottetown, PE
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I'm going to be addressing my questions to Ms. Weatherbie and Mr. Hartigan.
I want to start by thanking you for your representation of the people who are on the front lines of dealing with the backlog. I have the privilege of representing many of them in Parliament, just as you do in their professional work.
What we heard from the deputy minister is that the people involved in the backlog are essentially represented by three unions: the Union of Veterans' Affairs Employees, the one that you lead and another union that deals with the financial people.
I'll get you to confirm that and explain to the committee the role that your members play.
1:40 p.m.
President, Members, Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada
There are three. The UVAE represents employees who are part of PSAC. They fall under the admin assistants, the WP2s, who also help with the files. Then you have PIPSC and you have finance. There are over 500 PIPSC employees with Veterans Affairs. There are doctors, nurses and medical adjudicators, who are the primary owners of the files. There are over 200 IT people. They govern all of the new programs that are implemented in this system. There are procurement officers who fall under PIPSC.
1:45 p.m.
Liberal
Sean Casey Liberal Charlottetown, PE
Thank you, Ms. Weatherbie.
If I understand you correctly, it's primarily your members who are on the front lines. There are some supportive roles by the others. That being the case, were you surprised when the president of the Union of Veterans' Affairs Employees said that it's unfortunate a lot of the adjudicators are based in Charlottetown?
1:45 p.m.
President, Members, Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada
I don't recall that particular statement, sir, so I really shouldn't comment on it.
1:45 p.m.
Liberal
Sean Casey Liberal Charlottetown, PE
I'm reading it from the transcript of the meeting. I've written to her twice on it and she has chosen not to reply.
1:45 p.m.
President, Members, Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada
I work very well with all unions, as I mentioned, working with senior management and the deputy.
The medical adjudicators are not all in Charlottetown. We have quite a few in the Quebec area because they govern some of the French issues. We also have them in Ottawa. We have them out west. Especially now with COVID, we're hiring. In this virtual world, they can be at home and looking after files.
1:45 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Bryan May
I'm afraid I have to step in and bring our meeting to a close. I want to thank all the witnesses for being here today and helping our study on the backlog.
I will ask the witnesses to log off Zoom.
We're going to go right into some committee business here.
1:45 p.m.
Bloc
Luc Desilets Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
Mr. Chair, I have a quick point that will be of interest to everyone, I think.
Mr. Giroux said something very important earlier—that he would forward the committee the numbers for the rejection rates, in relation to the automatic approval process.
Do we know for sure that he will do that?