Veterans Affairs Committee on Nov. 16th, 2020

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank all of the witnesses for being here today and for sharing their valuable testimony.

If I could, I'll start with you, Mr. Thomson. First of all, I want to thank you for your service. I also want to thank you for coming in and sharing your personal story with us.

One of the things that I've heard from the department, and specifically from the minister, is that the solution they see for people who are waiting for their benefits for an extended amount of time is the veterans emergency fund. I'm just wondering if that is something you've accessed or you know of or have been talked to about to help bridge this period of time.

[Robert Thomson]

Honestly, your mentioning it is the first time I've ever heard of it, so no, I haven't even thought about it because I didn't even know it existed. The only thing that I did know existed was the VIP, that program. I can't remember what the acronym stands for, but you can't access that until your claim has been approved by the department.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you for that. That is something I am definitely interested in hearing about because I've heard this as a solution. I'm glad you've heard about it and I encourage you to talk to your case worker to figure out if that's going to be a great fit.

That was an incredibly powerful answer. Thank you.

My next question is to Mr. Sauvé.

Thank you so much for your testimony here today. I don't have time to talk about how much respect I have for the amazing work in my riding of the local RCMP, but I spend a lot of time with them and really appreciate it. I appreciate your being here with us today.

One of the things that we've heard from a lot of veterans is that the COVID-19 pandemic has really resulted in challenges for people who are applying for their benefits to get in with specialists or other medical professionals. There is a concern that, although the department is currently seeing a much lower application number, we're going to see a significant number come as COVID comes to an end. I'm just wondering if you are seeing anything similar.

[Brian Sauvé]

I like your optimism with “as COVID comes to an end”. A lot of people would say we're going to be with this for a long time.

No, I haven't seen that happen. I haven't heard that, but from an RCMP member's perspective, obviously there has to be an injury in service first and then a permanent disability in order to make an application. I think what you will see is that as our members.... If you're talking about COVID-related injuries, we tried to get a presumptive diagnosis agreed to from the RCMP so that—because our members were working right through COVID and the impacts of COVID—should there be a respiratory ailment down the road, there's a presumptive diagnosis expediting that. We're waiting to hear back on how the RCMP will look at that.

I think what you will see is an increase in retroactive applications down the road through Veterans Affairs, because I think through COVID, people are just not paying attention. They just don't have the time or they'd rather focus on family and things outside of work and things that have to deal with work. When COVID is done—I'll share your optimism—I think you'll see people start to refocus on what their benefits are and what they can apply for as they go down that road.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you, and I agree with you. COVID is going to take a while. With that incredible backlog we already have and having people delayed in their ability to fill out their applications, I wonder if we could see a huge increase at that time that will just add to the backlog.

One of the things you talked about earlier today was just having the number of people there to do the work. The PBO, of course, did a report at my request looking at what was happening with the backlog and what we need to see moving forward, and they suggested a substantial number of new hires to get the work done.

One of the things that has been most concerning to me is listening to the minister talk about hiring temporary folks, rather than permanent, long-term folks. I'm just wondering if you share that concern.

[Brian Sauvé]

I do. I don't know if I share it for the same reasons. I would share it mainly because, as any organization hires people to do its service, there's a difference in commitment level with respect to temporary and permanent full-time. When someone comes on temporarily working part time or casual, perhaps the commitment level, the dedication, the focus on the training, the knowledge and the abilities applied are not as deep for that employee as someone who is a full-time, dedicated person. That's the concern I would share.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you so much.

Mr. McNeil, it's always good to see you. I've enjoyed our conversations in the past.

I'll just go back to that original question I asked of the last witness. We know that so many veterans are not able to access specialists because of COVID. They're not able to access medical professionals to help prove the concerns and health issues they have, so we're seeing the number of applications going into the department go down. I'm just wondering if you are seeing anything that's reflecting that and if you have any concerns about what it's going to look like in the future as veterans get into this backlog that's largely invisible.

[Christopher McNeil]

I guess I say two things. We as a board would see this issue of getting appropriate specialists as not necessarily a COVID problem. Many of the provincial health systems are overwhelmed, and once somebody is released, do they have a family doctor? Now VAC is working to try to work through our problems. I think that's more fundamental across the board in the health system, but we are certainly waiting for a sort of boomerang effect when people come back to normal after COVID.

As VAC's work goes up, our work goes up, but certainly, I would agree with Mr. Sauvé. People are focused on other things, so it wouldn't surprise me if we saw an increase after COVID.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you very much. That's time.

We are now going into round two of questions.

First, we have MP Carrie, for five minutes, please.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I would like to split my time with Mr. Brassard.

I thank the witnesses for being here today, because I think everybody finds the backlog unacceptable and the purpose of the meeting is that we are looking for solutions. We're looking for specific plans and things that are concrete. We have heard some things from veterans' groups saying that pre-approval would be a great step forward.

As a new member of this committee, too, I find it disheartening.

Mr. Thomson, first of all, thank you for sharing your story, but I find it unbelievable that the Canadian Armed Forces could dismiss somebody for medical reasons but then take absolutely no responsibility for attributing that disability. The fact that they're not sharing this information and that it's not pre-approved, I don't understand how the right hand and left hand in government can't get this together.

If they were to implement a pre-approval program in your case, do you think there would be any downside to that?

[Robert Thomson]

You're asking about a pre-approval program in what?

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

I mean for your claims, because obviously you're getting a discharge for medical reasons. The one hand of the Canadian government, the armed forces, defence, says you're going to be discharged for medical reasons, but the other hand of the Canadian government, Veterans Affairs, says, “Oh well, just wait a second here. We're going to take a couple of years to figure out whether this is valid.”

[Robert Thomson]

Do you mean I have been diagnosed with knee problems, depression and stuff such as that, and it should be automatically forwarded to Veterans Affairs as soon as they determine I'm being medically released because of these things, so that Veterans Affairs can start working on it without my even sending in an application?

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

No, but I'm saying, as soon as things get in, they could move forward and just take the word that this is a legitimate reason, so we can get started on providing the benefits that veterans need.

[Robert Thomson]

Absolutely. I think that would be a great idea. I work in Global Affairs as well. I'm moving on from the Canadian Forces. We both know that one hand of the government doesn't always talk to the other.

Whether that is possible I don't know, but it would be great. We've already been told we're being released medically because of this and this. Veterans Affairs should understand or take our word that we are being released. We can provide the paperwork showing that we're being released. They should understand, “Well, if they are being released for this, then we should be covering them for this.”

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

Excellent. Thank you very much.

Mr. Brassard.

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Chair, how much time do I have?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

You have about two minutes, sir.

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

Perfect.

Mr. Sauvé, I want to go back to what you said about the Veterans Affairs offices. You mentioned that 13,000 members have used those offices. If you go to the Veterans Affairs website right now, and I did while you were talking, the Veterans Affairs offices have been closed since March and aren't expected to open until January.

What access are your members using for their disability claims right now if they can't use the Veterans Affairs offices?

[Brian Sauvé]

You've seen a slowdown, obviously, in the service delivery and the service access, but mostly you're being pushed towards the My VAC Account or 1-800 numbers and contact from that.

For those who are already in the occupational stress injury clinics, in treatments, obviously those are in-person, physically distanced, however it works, so they are still going forward. However, the VAC services offices are shut down for now.

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

Yes. They have been shut down since March and aren't expected to open until January, if then.

Mr. Heilman, I have a question for you. It's more of curiosity and concern.

The Canadian Forces medical staff diagnoses are often the reason that people are being medically released, but there's still some reluctance on the part of Canadian Forces medical personnel to provide the details of the injuries that are related in order to adjudicate the benefits of the claim. Why is there a continuation of this that seems to happen, this reluctance among Canadian Forces medical personnel to provide that information to VAC, which would help in the adjudication and claims processing process?

[Brock Heilman]

I am not a clinician myself. I don't work in the clinics. I work at the headquarters, so I can't discuss what would be in the mindset of the clinician. What I can tell you is that they are absolutely dedicated individuals and are wanting to do nothing more than provide the best health care possible. The second they have the possibility to offer a diagnosis, they do that. In my 21-year military career and my six years at the headquarters working with CFHIS, I have never seen a doctor take their time to provide a diagnosis.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you, sir. That's time.

MP Fillmore, you have five minutes, please.

[Andy Fillmore, Liberal, Halifax, NS]

Thank you very much, Chair.

I want to say a sincere thanks to all the witnesses for giving us their time and the benefit of their expertise today.

I'd like to say particular thanks to you, Mr. Thomson, for your service and for sharing some of your afternoon. I'd like to follow up on something you said about information sharing and pose a few questions to Mr. Heilman.

Mr. Heilman, I heard your reluctance to get into the question of whether it's CAF or VAC that should be in the business of attributing the cause of an injury to military service. It appears that one way we can avoid needing to change the way attributions are made is to improve the way that information is shared between the departments. I think Mr. Brassard was touching on this as well just now.

On that point, relating to the backlog, in your view what information, if any, between the two departments is currently not being shared that would be relevant to a veteran's claim and that could be improved? What are we missing here?

[Brock Heilman]

Now that we are moving CFHIS directly into the hands of VAC adjudicators, there is no information, or no immediate information, that will be missing other than paper records that will need to be scanned into CFHIS. That being said, the amount of time it takes to scan a record is measurable by us, certainly. For some files it can take an hour. For files that are much more complex, it can take a full day.

It is getting much better. I am a veteran and I was medically released, so I have skin in this game. Some of these people are my friends. Some of these people were my soldiers and some of them were my peers. I am definitely doing absolutely everything I can, and I have the full support of my chain of command to do everything I possibly can to expedite this file transfer as quickly as I possibly can.