Veterans Affairs Committee on Nov. 16th, 2020

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

That brings us to the end of our second round. We are at about 5:26 p.m., and I did ask at the beginning for the committee to indulge me in some committee business time at the end. Unless there's an objection, we should move to that.

I want to thank all of the witnesses for taking the time to contribute to this study. All of you have contributed in one shape or another to this study and with all the work you've done daily leading up to this. Thank you so much for being here. I will ask that you log off the Zoom call, so that we can proceed with committee business. I'll give you a moment to do that. Thank you again.

We are going to be live now. We're not in camera. Normally, we would do committee business in camera, but there are a few things we need to get done. I didn't want to keep everybody an additional half an hour logging off and logging back on. Just be aware that we are not in camera.

First and foremost on my list, I want to get agreement from the committee to adopt the study budget. Normally, we'd be in Parliament, and we'd have the paperwork in front of us with the breakdown of the budget. I can assure you, one of the positives of COVID-19 is that the budgets are a fraction of what they used to be. From the direction of the clerk, the high end on the budget is going to be $3,250, and that's if microphones are sent out to everybody and so on.

I'm hoping we can get agreement from the committee to move forward on that budget.

Are there any questions? The clerk is willing to answer any questions as well, but normally a committee of this length would be in the tens of thousands of dollars, with travel, hotels and all that sort of thing. The amount of $3,250 is very reasonable, I think.

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

A reminder to send the witness names for the study on the Royal Canadian Legion and other veterans' organizations and their financial health during and after COVID, to the clerk by Wednesday at the latest. If you have some names already, the sooner you can get them to the clerk, the better. She's calling people as she gets them in order to get them lined up in time for our meetings.

Regarding the study, we did not specify how many meetings we would hold. Are we in agreement about holding three meetings on the study of the Royal Canadian Legion and other veterans' organizations? Is that sufficient?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Excellent.

We'll move forward again to everybody's favourite topic, the Whole Foods letter. You've all received a copy of the response to our motion. Many of you have received outreach from representatives of Whole Foods.

For the record, we've received a letter stating Whole Foods has changed the policy but would not be able to appear on the date proposed. The clerk and I have prepared a response inviting Whole Foods to contact the clerk to find a date when the president would be available to appear. I want to clarify with the committee that if the president refuses to appear, am I to use all the tools at my disposal to get that witness here to testify?

Is there any discussion?

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

What tools would those be? Just remind me again of what tools are available to have him appear.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

We want to recognize, first of all, that they have changed the policy. They've agreed to making a sizable donation to the Legion. The letter was very clear on their support for veterans.

If I'm not mistaken, this committee agreed with MP Blaney's intervention before we voted that we would very much like the president to appear, regardless of whether the policy changes. What I'm suggesting at this point is to not come down too hard with the hammer, but to simply recognize that maybe the date we provided, with that time, was not an agreeable time, and to give them the option to give us some options in working with the clerk and our schedule.

If that is refused, my next option would be to summon the witness. Now, this witness, as I understand it, is not in Canada, so the bailiff would not be able to deliver that summons until that person steps foot in Canada. I think it would be a very strong message.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

On a point of order, Mr. Chair, I just wanted to remind the chair that it was actually not my motion.

That was MP Ruff's motion. That was a motion from the House. MP Ruff made that motion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

No, no. I understand that, but I believe.... Correct me if I'm wrong. I didn't mean to say that it was your motion. In fact, it was Mr. Brassard's motion. Maybe I am misremembering, but I believe that it was you who intervened just before we voted to ask us to bring forward the witness regardless of whether or not Whole Foods changed their policy before the time that they could speak. That's what I was referring to.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

That is correct. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you. No problem.

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

Mr. Chair, I seem to recall the conversation going that way as well. There's a question I have, given the short timeline. Would we book another meeting over and above what is already scheduled for this meeting? I just need some clarification on that, because we have another couple of meetings left and then we do the draft report on this very important subject. Then, following that, we have the veterans' organizations and the Royal Canadian Legion and the impacts.

From a scheduling standpoint, how do you envision the scheduling happening to accommodate this Mr. Mackey—I think that's his name—from Whole Foods?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

I'll have to refer to and check in with the clerk to see what our runway looks like, but I think you're correct. I don't think this is going to be a two-hour meeting. I don't know if you guys have it in your minds that we would want this one witness for two solid hours, but I believe that we would be able to get it in. Now that we're doing two meetings a week—and it's confirmed—until we rise for the holidays, I think we have the runway to do it. If we have to add an additional meeting, I would obviously come back to the committee to get permission to do so.

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

Okay. You're seeing the potential of a one-hour meeting, then. Is that correct?

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Obviously, this is the decision of the committee, but in my mind, I would think that's sufficient.

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

Okay.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Yes, I think an hour is sufficient, but I think summoning him here in some way, shape or form is an important gesture. We did that last year with the president of Air Canada. He initially refused, but he made it this way. We got the job done. I think we have important messages to make.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

I want it to be clear to members of this committee who have not chaired a committee before that to use that power is not something that is done lightly. I have never used it in five years as a chair. It does come with consequences for the individual. My hope is that this could be resolved by just making sure that we have a date that's agreeable. We'll work with his office and through the clerk to make sure that option is the first option.

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

I think that, from my standpoint, that option is one that I would agree with.

Again, just going back to last week, Mr. Chair—and I think you mentioned this at the onset—this whole situation was precipitated by a misaligned policy, shall we say, on the part of Whole Foods. The fact that they actually doubled down on it is what caused great concerns among not just us as parliamentarians but Canadians right across the country. That was in the second release they issued that morning. Then, later on, they came out and saw the ills of their way, shall we say.

They've said very clearly—as you said at the onset—that the policy has changed. There's their contribution to the Legion poppy fund. We now have legislation that's going to be introduced in the Ontario legislature, at least, that's going to address this issue going forward.

To use the hammer, if you will, of a parliamentary subpoena for a company that has clearly stepped back and seen how wrong its policy was.... A step back, I think, first and foremost, is good news in terms of the respect it shows our veterans. To go that far with the hammer, as you say, to compel Mr. Mackey to come....

We knew this was a possibility. I think it was Mr. Fillmore who brought it up, or it could have been Mr. Casey: What if they come out and correct the policy? I made a direct plea to Whole Foods and Mr. Mackey to change the policy that day, and they did, probably not as a result of what I said but because of the firestorm that was going on across the country.

We'll have to deal with it as it comes, but out of courtesy, provide him with some other dates. Then, if the dates aren't amenable, we'll have to deal with it then, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you, MP Brassard. I think you do a disservice to the amount of power you wield.

[John Brassard, Conservative, Barrie—Innisfil, ON]

No, I don't.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

I think that's the best way forward. I will remind you that if we do that, it's not instant. As I said, the bailiff would not be able to issue what is referred to as a “summons” until the witness is actually in Canada. I don't know if that's something that's imminent, given COVID.

If I can move forward then, we'll send back a letter to connect with the clerk to work through possible dates. I will report back to the committee as soon as I have more information on that issue.

I will double-check with my clerk to see if there's anything I have missed, but I think we've covered everything with regard to committee business.

I apologize. Mr. Carrie has been waiting very patiently with his hand up.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I just want to say how much I'm enjoying this committee. I think, like everyone, I was outraged about the policy of Whole Foods. My only concern is that—as we heard from witnesses today—we have some extremely important studies, and I just am thinking of prioritizing. I'd really like to get through what we're doing and decide on what we want to achieve.

As Mr. Brassard did say, they have changed the policy moving forward. They've made a significant donation as well. Let's see what they come back with, and we can decide at that time.

Thank you very much for allowing me to put my thoughts forward on that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bryan May]

Thank you.

MP Wagantall.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

I just want to say that I concur with Mr. Carrie and Mr. Brassard on that.