Veterans Affairs Committee on Sept. 23rd, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Ms. Hepfner.

Mr. Desilets, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Usherwood, I'd like to know how you feel when you see military personnel from the three wars being recognized without having been deployed, compared to you and what you experienced during the Gulf War.

[Sgt Nina Charlene Usherwood]

All of us who serve in the military are well aware that we don't have to go to another country to be at risk. I strapped an F-18 pilot in at Cold Lake in 1984. He flew out to the Cold Lake range—Cold Lake, Alberta is maybe 60 or 70 miles away—and never came back. That same summer, there was a technician in the back of a T-33 who, along with the pilot, never came back.

All of us know that we don't have to be deployed to die. There are at least 1,800 names in the seventh Book of Remembrance, and a large number of those were killed in Canada. We all know that, while we're there, we're potentially going to be.... I think people should be acknowledged for what they do. If I'd really wanted to, I probably could have gotten out of the gulf. You get a medical exam. I don't think it's that difficult to prevent and not do it.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

After the bill was passed by Parliament, the charter came into force in 2006. Now, what you basically want is for all people who have served on missions, no matter what they were or where they took place, to be on an equal footing.

Is that correct?

[Sgt Nina Charlene Usherwood]

Actually, I'd like the charter repealed because it puts maximum caps on. If you applied it to everybody right now, the Korea veterans would lose some of their current benefits.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Desilets.

Now let's go to Ms. Blaney for two and a half minutes.

Please, go ahead.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

I want to come back, Nina, to the medals.

When I heard your presentation, you talked about the Gulf War medal that you ended up receiving in a brown envelope. You also received the Kuwait Liberation Medal. In those processes.... First of all, regarding the Gulf War medal, did you find out what the confusion was at any point? Did they clarify what the back-and-forth was and why they gave it to you in a brown envelope?

Secondly, we heard testimony that, sometimes, you're given medals you can't wear over your heart. You have to put it on the other side. With the Kuwait Liberation Medal, is that the case?

[Sgt Nina Charlene Usherwood]

To answer your second question first, those medals cannot be worn with the other medals. That's in the policy of the department of heraldry or whatever it is with the Governor General. I don't have that issue. Except, frankly, the Saudi Arabian medal is far better looking than the Canadian medal. The Canadian medal, like I said, looks cheap. When I first saw it start to peel, others said, “Wow, that's some medal.” The CDs are nicely stamped out, but this wasn't. I don't know whether anybody has gotten around to replacing those. They were doing cheap stamped medals at the time.

Your first part was about why I got it in the brown envelope and stuff like that.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Yes. Did they ever clarify the confusion?

[Sgt Nina Charlene Usherwood]

It was somebody in the orderly room who decided there was nothing saying that I was there, so I shouldn't get it. I don't think they consulted with anybody. They just made their own decision. Why I got it in the end was because I pushed. If I hadn't pushed, I wouldn't have gotten it.

In the forces, we have “thousand-milers”—plain envelopes sealed with a string so you can reuse them over and over. If I'm sending something to you, I address it to you. When you get it and want to use it to send something to someone else, you strike that out with your pen and write a new address on it. We call them thousand-milers because they can travel for a long time. I don't know if they use them anymore, but that's what it came in.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much.

We have two more MP interventions.

I invite Mrs. Cathay Wagantall, for five minutes.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Sergeant Usherwood, for your service, but also for how well you have explained things for us today. It's very much appreciated.

I just have one thing to ask, because I have limited time. The Gulf War association put forward a petition to the House of Commons in March 2023, calling upon the Government of Canada to reclassify the Persian Gulf War, the liberation of Kuwait, from a special duty area to wartime service within all Canadian policies. The main argument was that, of course, if they designated that as a wartime service and extended it to Persian Gulf veterans, they would need to extend it to all post-Korea veterans who were deployed.

With petitions, ministers are always required to respond. This is the response tabled by the Minister of National Defence. I'd like you to pretend I'm the Minister of National Defence. I'm going to read the response, and I would like to get your reaction to that, to me, as though I was the minister. I would like to know, how do you feel about that?

The response tabled by the Minister of National Defencestated:

Applying these categories is not meant to signal greater or lesser respect for the service of members and Veterans, nor are such categories indicative of a lesser degree of risk on the part of those deployed.

There you have it. There's nothing to see here.

[Sgt Nina Charlene Usherwood]

That's exactly my interpretation. I think it's been done like that all along. However, it does have an impact when you go to Veterans Affairs, straight up.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

You said when they become veterans, they become more aware. Is that what you were referring to?

What happens, specifically, when you become a veteran, so that you're more aware and this seems so demeaning.

[Sgt Nina Charlene Usherwood]

Most people, when they're leaving the forces, look back and reflect on it. Especially for me, I was approaching 60. I looked back and reflected on various things I'd done during my career.

Senior service military personnel are conscious of what the difference means, and how it impacts them. As I said, everybody in the military, after a few years, knows the difference. You're not a war veteran as far as the military is concerned, and also as far as VAC is concerned.

[Cathay Wagantall, Conservative, Yorkton—Melville, SK]

There isn't the same level of respect, and definitely you faced the same risks from what we heard today in regard to your service. Thank you.

I'm finished, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Next, we have MP Brian May for five minutes.

[Bryan May, Liberal, Cambridge, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Sergeant, thank you for your service to your country, and a special thanks for being here yet again to help this committee navigate some of these challenging conversations.

I want to touch base on something you were just talking about with Monsieur Desilets. It got me thinking about my time as Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of National Defence. I really appreciated your comment that you don't need to be deployed to serve your country and to die for your country. I was sitting here reflecting on the two soldiers we lost at Petawawa recently, in the crash there. I had the opportunity to visit the crash site. The base commander took me through the scenario and some of the stories that were told of how that rescue operation unfolded. It was truly amazing to hear some of the specific accounts of that horrible accident. I think we have to keep in mind that we're talking about service when we're talking about voluntary service, and the importance of recognizing all who serve.

In our ridings, we all have different organizations that recognize veterans or help keep communities connected to military service. Obviously, Legions come to mind. One thing was really upsetting to me. I have a number of Legions in my riding. At one of them, I had an eye-opening experience early on, as a new member of Parliament. When I asked if any veterans from Afghanistan or the Persian Gulf War were members of our local Legion, one of the members of the Legion said, well, they're not veterans. That has always stuck with me. Thankfully that particular individual is no longer involved in that Legion. I'm very proud of my Legions and the leadership we have, but that was a really interesting take from somebody who you'd think was there to advocate for and to thank those who served, all those who served, with the Canadian Armed Forces.

I'm wondering what your opinion is on the classification differences. Have you experienced that? Have you heard from people who have experienced that different level of service because they served in one conflict versus another?

[Sgt Nina Charlene Usherwood]

I can't say that I personally experienced it. I don't relate to the Legion. I didn't relate to it before, because, frankly, when I first joined, I was younger. When I came back from the gulf, there were still a lot of people left from Korea and even World War II. They wouldn't have seen me as a veteran because the government doesn't call me a veteran.

Maybe 10 years ago I sat and listened to a representative from Veterans Affairs, I think, talk about the new veterans as opposed to the previous veterans. It was government for sure. I think it was Veterans Affairs. They talked about the new veterans and how they weren't the same as the old veterans. One of the people sitting beside me listening to this was in the former Yugoslavia and experienced combat. They were pretty darn upset to hear a government official say that.

We are not considered veterans by the government. We didn't fight in a war.

[Bryan May, Liberal, Cambridge, ON]

We've heard you and others say that this is about money, but I think what you're suggesting is that it goes beyond that. It goes to a real and potentially cultural issue. We've talked a little bit about peacekeeping versus wartime service. Do you believe it's more than just the money?

[Sgt Nina Charlene Usherwood]

I think it's both, but the government hasn't wanted to support its veterans since World War I. It has tried to avoid supporting the veterans to the level it should because of money.

[Bryan May, Liberal, Cambridge, ON]

I'm getting an indication from the chair that I have a very brief opportunity to ask a question.

I just really want to turn it to you. In closing, do you have any final thoughts that we should hear for this study?

[Sgt Nina Charlene Usherwood]

I should have anticipated that. No, I don't. I can't think of any right now.