Veterans Affairs Committee on Sept. 26th, 2024

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Blake Richards]

Welcome to meeting number 105 of the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs.

Today, a witness is taking part in the study undertaken by the committee.

We have a two-and-a-half-hour meeting today, which is a little unusual, just to point that out for members in case anyone has forgotten. We will have an hour and a half with our witness, whom I'll introduce in a moment, and then we will be in camera for an hour on committee business.

For the public portion of the meeting, which is what we'll start with, we will hear from our witness who is with us this morning: Ms. Joanne Kimm. She is here to share with us her personal situation and how that might lead to some improvement, hopefully, for others in the future.

Typically, we give five minutes. You are our sole witness today. I think we can probably be fairly lenient on that, so we'll give you the time you need, within reason, of course.

I'll turn the floor over to you and let you give your opening remarks, and then we will go into questions from members in order by party.

Joanne, the floor is yours. Take it away.

[Joanne Kimm, As an Individual]

Mr. Chair and honourable members, my name is Joanne Kimm. I'm the wife of John Kimm. Thank you for inviting me to speak with you today.

My husband served in the Canadian Armed Forces' navy from 1989 to 2011. His overall service to Canada was 22.5 years, with over 11 years of that service being away from his family.

In 2022, my husband was diagnosed with stage 4 metastatic colorectal cancer, a cancer he got from using toxic chemicals while serving our country. My husband was awarded the maximum compensation for pain and suffering, in the amount of $334,424.65, and currently receives monthly compensation in additional pain and suffering, diminished earnings and income replacement benefits. He chose to receive the lump sum pain and suffering payment due to his diminished life expectancy diagnosis.

In May 2022, my husband couldn't breathe and fell. My son and I struggled to get him up on the bed. After calling 911, I sent my son and grandson out of the bedroom and sat with my husband. Honourable members, I have seen my husband cry twice in the 36 years that we've been together. Once was when my mother died. The second time was when he lay on the bed anxiously waiting for the ambulance, struggling to breathe. It gutted me when I saw him cry out that he didn't want to die. It crushed me knowing I could do nothing but wait with him for the paramedics to arrive. I had to hold back my fears, tears and emotions so that I could be calm for him. It was later revealed that my husband's oxygen levels were so low from blood clots in his lungs that he could have died.

My husband has received ongoing chemotherapy treatments, CT scans and MRI scans and had numerous oncology appointments. These treatments have not only impacted his physical and mental health but have also impacted our family's mental health. I have had to take time off work twice for mental anguish and exhaustion, and now I will be taking an unpaid compassionate care leave so I can be with him until he passes.

My husband was hospitalized twice this past February for pneumonia, and again in June for adverse reactions to chemotherapy treatments. His oncologist said the chemotherapy treatments were no longer working and that the best we all can do is to keep him comfortable. He does not anticipate my husband living into 2025.

Mr. Chair, while my husband has received excellent service from Veterans Affairs staff, and we have only high praise for them, their hands are tied to the policies they keep. We acknowledge that my husband has received the maximum pain and suffering compensation available; however, we worked out that it was the equivalent of 5.19 years of salary—five years for a disease that is robbing him of his life. I have watched this once strong man shrink before me. I am watching him wither from this disease. He shuffles and must use a walker to walk the 20 steps to the washroom. I almost cry when I see his spine and shoulder blades sticking out further from his skin now, his feet cold from the slowing circulation. I see him bend over when he sits because it takes too much energy to sit up straight. I hear him out of breath just walking the eight steps from his bathroom to our bedroom.

Excuse me for a minute.

As my husband's health continues to decline, he wants to make sure we're okay when he passes. He's a proud man. He was trained to follow orders and to not ask questions. He does not like to ask for help, so I come before you today, from Nova Scotia, to ask this honourable committee for help. I request a review of the pain and suffering compensation to find a way to increase it and to also put in motion a swift decision on steps to offer additional compensation to our family.

Mr. Chair, the pain and suffering compensation was extensively discussed by this committee between the years 2007 and 2010. On October 20, 2009, there was a discussion between Mr. Peter Stoffer and Mr. Brian Ferguson from Veterans Affairs about a comparison with the British lump sum payment.

Mr. Stoffer said:

I also have here information on what the British do for their HM Armed Forces personnel. They've doubled the upfront payment to £570,000 for the most severe injuries or death. That's quadruple what we give. This is one of the things I'd like to see changed. I know we work side-by-side in Afghanistan. The guys are sitting there, thinking: well, if you go, your family gets this; if I go, my family gets that. So maybe it's something to look at in the future.

Mr. Chair, I think that future is now.

Currently, the United Kingdom awards £650,000. This is the equivalent to over $1 million Canadian. The 2024 maximum lump sum for Canada is $440,991.96.

Canada is severely lacking in adequate compensation for pain and suffering. In these volatile economic times, it is essential that veterans know that their country truly appreciates their sacrifices for the freedoms we have today.

From fiscal year 2012 to present, Veterans Affairs has sent back hundreds of millions of dollars to Treasury Board. In 2022-23, it was $271,634,711, which is 4.77% of their budget. In fiscal year 2021-22, it was $920,995,685. That's almost a billion dollars.

In closing, Mr. Chair, I would like to thank this honourable committee for allowing me to speak today.

I also beseech this committee to forward recommendations to help my family now, before my husband passes. Veterans Affairs indicates that its priority is to help veterans. I'm asking for that help now.

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Blake Richards]

Thank you, Joanne.

First, I want to say thank you to your husband for his service to our country. Thank you for your service as his spouse and as his family member. Also, thank you for your strength in coming here today to share your family's experience, obviously with the hope that you'll see change. We thank you for that. We thank you for reminding us of the importance of ensuring that we do everything we can to be there for those who have served our country. Thank you very much.

We will now turn to questioning. We do that in order, by party. In the first round, each party will receive six minutes.

Our first person is Fraser Tolmie from the Conservative Party.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Thank you, Mrs. Kimm.

I really appreciate and want to echo what my colleague has said with regard to your coming here and sharing your testimony, and with regard to thanking your husband for his service. I believe you said it was from 1989 to 2011, which is 22 years. Obviously, you've shared a great deal of that journey. Quite often, spouses are not recognized for their service, commitment, sacrifice, and obviously advocacy, as you now come before this committee.

There are a couple of things that I wish to cover.

You made a comment with regard to the volatile economic times that we're presently experiencing. You talked about a lump sum. I want to unpack that a little bit, if you don't mind. Do you feel that the compensation you're receiving is covering the costs of inflation in the volatile economic times we're experiencing? Are you being adequately compensated right now?

[Joanne Kimm]

If what you're asking is whether we can pay our bills, yes, we can. It's in the anxious moments that we're going through on a daily basis that we realize that once he passes, we may not be able to. Some of the benefits he receives now will go away. I understand there are benefits that I will receive as a spouse.

To answer your question is a bit difficult because as we compare bills now...going forward, I don't know. It all depends on what the bills are.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

You talked about anxious times. When you're going through what you're going through, obviously it's emotionally draining for the whole family, and then you have your concern about what the future looks like.

You also mentioned earlier on in your testimony that you've taken unpaid leave in order to look after your husband. Can you share a little bit more about that? That obviously impacts you financially as well.

[Joanne Kimm]

Thank you for that. Just to clarify, the unpaid leave will be in the future. I was able to go on short-term illness for the past two times. The next time is what's called a compassionate care leave. It is unpaid through work, and I have to go through EI to receive money. It will be a lot less than what I would be getting from my current salary. Yes, that will impact us, but it isn't unpaid leave from work.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

We hear, time and time again, testimony about the challenges and the financial difficulties. You're not the first person who has shared that and expressed that, but to hear it from your perspective, obviously, as a spouse, as someone who has to be a caregiver.... Personally, that has happened in our home, where we've had dementia or Alzheimer's and someone has had to give up work to look after someone who has dealt with that challenge.

Do you think the government could be doing a better job helping veterans in their time of need and in the challenges they're facing, like you are, rather than adding to their troubles? Can you share a little more about that?

[Joanne Kimm]

My thoughts on that are that many veterans don't know about the help they can ask for. Veterans Affairs is a demand-driven type of service. Had I not advocated already for some of the benefits he has received, we wouldn't have even known about them. To add to what you've asked, when you're walking this road, you don't realize what you may or may not be entitled to.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Okay, so let's unpack that. I'm sorry to walk you through this, and if it's difficult.... What I'm hearing is that not very many people know what they're entitled to. How do you find that out? That's obviously an interaction with Veterans Affairs. How do you get that information to find out what you're entitled to? How did doors get opened up for you, or were you pushing those doors down? It's obvious that you've been pushing some doors down, or you wouldn't be here.

[Joanne Kimm]

That's true.

I've spoken to many staff at Veterans Affairs, who have been fantastic. I also belong to a number of Facebook groups for veterans, where we share advice and recommendations. I've also contacted my MP's office. I've been talking to whoever will listen to me. A lot of it is knocking on doors. I don't know if a lot of people could actually do that. You're dealing with a situation where you have someone who's dying. You have that emotional and physical journey that you're travelling. In my case, I'm just very resilient. I try to speak with whoever will listen, whether that's Veterans Affairs staff or an MP.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

What you're saying to me is that Veterans Affairs isn't the one that's helping you out. It's Facebook and other communities that are actually getting you the information you need to navigate through this situation. Is that what you're saying to me?

[Joanne Kimm]

No. Veterans Affairs has helped us out a lot. In fact, the staff I've spoken to there have been very, very supportive, and they have suggested other benefits we may be entitled to, but yes, I have had to approach them. However, in the conversations we've had, they have asked me if I knew about this or if I knew about that. That's what has helped us along as well.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Okay. Thank you for your time.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Blake Richards]

Thank you, Mr. Tolmie.

We will now move to the Liberal Party and Mr. Samson for the next six minutes.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Mrs. Kimm, thank you very much for being here and for sharing your story and some of the challenges. I'm a Nova Scotian as well, so I'm very happy that you are here publicly sharing that information and some of the struggles.

I want to thank your husband for his service, and, as my colleague said, thank you as well. We know very well that when one individual serves, the whole family is actually serving. It's very challenging on that front.

I also understand you met with the minister. Is that correct?

[Joanne Kimm]

Yes, I did. She came to our home and visited us.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Can you tell us a bit about how that conversation went?

[Joanne Kimm]

It went well, I think. I felt that it was important for her to meet us, because quite often, as you know, you deal a lot with paperwork. There's a file number, but I really needed her to meet us in person so that we could express ourselves and so she could actually see my husband and see what he is like.

I prepared a briefing note for her, of course, and it was a lovely discussion. I felt that she did listen to us, and she promised to try to see if she could speak to whomever she needed to speak to, to help.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

It's very important that you're sharing the story and meeting with key stakeholders.

Have you spoken to any of the Legion branches? They also have officers who can help veterans find information and help them fill in forms and whatnot. Have you met with them at all?

[Joanne Kimm]

I'm actually a Legion member. The Legion, of course, is limited as to what information they can provide. In our case, we filled out the forms that we needed to fill out, and Veterans Affairs staff have been helpful in guiding me to the applicable forms that I would need to fill out.

I haven't really had to go to my Legion, although they do know what's going on and they've offered support, but it's Veterans Affairs that I've been mostly dealing with.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

That's very good, and that's what we want. We want veterans and their families to reach out to Veterans Affairs to ask the questions, to get the support they need and to find out if there are any other types of support that could help, because your challenges change as this moves forward, as you shared in your story, which is important.

I am just trying to make sure I understand fully. You're sharing your story and you're indicating that Veterans Affairs has been very supportive and the staff have been very good. The real purpose or the real objective of yours is that the benefits you're receiving are not enough compared to others. Can you talk about that a bit more?

[Joanne Kimm]

It's the pain and suffering component of those benefits that I'm referring to. It's a legislated amount, as I understand. My husband was assessed at 116%, but because of that rating scale, he could not receive any more than 100%. That's the issue I need to address, because that particular lump sum is not adequate enough, in my mind.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Let's talk about that lump sum. I don't know if you're aware—maybe you are, through your discussions—that if you had to take the decision today, you would not have to take the lump sum if you didn't want it. You could take a pension for life. Did anyone mention that? Did you have a conversation around that as well?

[Joanne Kimm]

Yes. There was the option of a monthly amount versus the lump sum, but because of my husband's diagnosis...at that time, the diagnosis was for six to 12 months with no treatment or a 75% chance of five years with treatment. Because we didn't know how long he was going to live, we opted for the lump sum.