Veterans Affairs Committee on Oct. 3rd, 2024

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you for sharing that.

[Harold Davis]

Now Senator Rebecca Patterson is going to present that medal on Monday to this deserving veteran of the Gulf War. It took me quite a while to get that done.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you for that.

My time is up. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Ms. Blaney.

We have more questions to come. This is the second round.

I would like to invite Mr. Fraser Tolmie to take his five minutes, please.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Through you, Chair, to our guests, thank you very much for joining us.

Again, I want to recognize your service for our country and, for all those who are joining us today, we're grateful.

It can be very frustrating sometimes, sitting in our chairs and hearing the testimony. The onus is not on you to prove things. The onus is on us to be able to deliver and to get results.

I'm struck by what you said earlier on, Mr. Davis: that you've not been able to hold a meeting with the Minister of National Defence. Did I hear that correctly that he was too—

[Harold Davis]

That's correct.

I've met with the veterans affairs minister. Both Mike and I, whenever we've asked for a meeting, we actually got a meeting with her, but with the Minister of National Defence, no. I can't even get a reply back from his office.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

This is about legal recognition for active duty, and you're not being recognized. You're not even getting a meeting with the Minister of National Defence. That's very disappointing because it seems to be that the solution.... The problem that you're facing is that there is no policy. You've been looking for a policy, but there is no policy with regard to your act of service being recognized. The power and authority is within that minister's hands, and he won't even meet with you.

I also find it challenging, and I want to share a little bit of a story.

We talk about how the Korean vets have been recognized, and when it seems so simple that they've been recognized for their service, doesn't it seem like you should be recognized for your service in the Persian Gulf?

[Mike McGlennon]

We are.... From a legal standpoint, the Persian Gulf special duty mission service was legally identical to the Korean War experience. Both were chapter VII missions, parts of a coalition for liberation of a country, although that term for Korea is loosely used because it only has that armistice. Actually, the country hasn't been liberated. We're still at war with Korea in some manner.

Because National Defence doesn't have a policy, it doesn't need to be held accountable for anything. Our opinion is that it's the office of the National Defence. After 33 years, multiple parties have been in power. It's a long-standing issue. We're not here to point fingers. We're focusing in on the office.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

I understand that, and that's not what I'm getting at. What I'm saying is that Korea has been recognized. In 1988, there was a badge that was issued for recognition of service. I believe it was Mulroney, who was also a big supporter. You've testified that you have a letter saying that we have to fix this.

What I'm saying is that there is a very simple solution, and you have a very good argument for your case. Why has this change not happened in the eight years that you've been trying to advocate for this change? It seems like a logical answer to this. Why has that not changed?

[Mike McGlennon]

Well, when I visited, some of you asked or commented around similar issues. The problem seems to be in front of my nose, but the office that we believe has the power to solve the problem is National Defence—

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

They're not answering your calls.

[Mike McGlennon]

They're not taking our calls. As long as they don't take our calls, the problem is not in their inbox. They don't know anything.

[Fraser Tolmie, Conservative, Moose Jaw—Lake Centre—Lanigan, SK]

Well, it must be very frustrating for you to sit here when the solution is right there, and all it takes is one meeting.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much, Mr. Tolmie.

Now, colleagues, I would like to invite Ms. Anita Vandenbeld for five minutes, please.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

It's a pleasure to be a guest here at this committee for this particular meeting. It is an extremely important meeting.

I know that you referenced that event for the 30th anniversary of the liberation of Kuwait at the War Museum. I was there as parliamentary secretary, and it was my first conversation with you.

I think that all of us feel very strongly that nobody should have to fight for recognition. I think that I speak for all members of this committee when I say that as far as we're concerned, you are war heroes. The long-overdue recognition is something that we all want to see happen.

I want to go to a little bit of the process issue, because I think that what we're facing here is that there is actually no mechanism through which this kind of recognition would be done. You've often said that it's not about just the Persian Gulf War. This is about creating a mechanism and a definition so that, for future battles, 30 years later no other veterans have to fight this issue.

Is it enough for you that you be recognized as wartime veterans, or are you really looking for a systemic change that would actually create a mechanism so that in the future it would be almost automatic—that if you have this, this and this, it automatically makes you a war veteran and no one else has to fight? Is that what you're looking for here?

[Harold Davis]

Do you want to talk about the battle honours system?

[Mike McGlennon]

Yes.

That is a great question—great question—on the lack of a process and the systemic issue.

Take everything the military has done since 1950. We didn't declare war on Korea. We didn't declare war on Iraq. We didn't declare war on Afghanistan. We only declared war on Germany and Japan. In those circumstances, it was rather obvious, but for everything since 1950, National Defence has put those military veterans on active service, classified them as special duty veterans and sent them off to do their business.

The veterans go off. They serve their country. Some of them die and don't come home. Those who come home are still wearing uniforms. They can't do anything. Eventually, they get out and become veterans. They become aware of issues, such as missing benefits and commemoration not being appropriate to their service. They start advocating. This is where we are. We are at this stage of the game. We are here to advocate for ourselves, because officially, we're the only ones we can talk about. However, as a concerned veteran, I would like to ensure that future veterans don't have to go through this process.

This idiocy has to cease. It's not fair. It's not transparent. Veterans have died before even knowing that they're wartime service veterans. I'm 66 years old. I don't know if I'm going to wake up tomorrow morning. It's possible. We're getting older. When we rededicated the National War Memorial in 2014, we put the Boer War on it. Those guys were long gone. They weren't wartime service veterans, in Canada's opinion, until 2014.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

What I'd also like to get at from you, because you've been at this for some time, is that right now there really is no mechanism within either DND or VAC to do this. DND is saying that this is actually commemorations, which means it's under Veterans Affairs. I know that's why you've had many meetings with the minister. I do understand that there may be a process under way where those definitions are being looked at and what that would look like.

You described very well how, for you, when you went, you were going to war, in your mind. This goes beyond the benefits. It's easy to talk about benefits. I know there are certain parallels in benefits that DND has put in there. What this is really about, though, and what I'm getting from some of the veterans I've spoken to, is the acknowledgement. It's in your heart. It's so that you can stand up and.... You mentioned your grandchildren. I have often said that it matters to you, so it matters to us.

I wonder if you could talk a little about what this would mean to you, beyond all of the benefits and the details, if you were recognized as war veterans.

[Harold Davis]

Some of the veterans I know won't talk about it. They won't wear their medals. They will not have anything to do with anything veteran-wise. Here's the quote that I got: “Well, my own country don't give a shit, so why should I?”

Pardon my language, but that's what it was.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you, Mr. Davis.

Now it's over to Mr. Desilets, for two and a half minutes this time.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. McGlennon, if you could be concise in your answers, I'd appreciate it.

If I'm not mistaken, you met with the minister, Ms. Petitpas Taylor. Briefly, can you tell us what came out of the meeting?

[Mike McGlennon]

Thank you.

I have met with the Minister of Veterans Affairs on a few occasions. The last meeting I had with her was an hour in her office, private, just her and me. It was a very cordial meeting. She has told us that she is hoping for a robust report from this committee on this issue. She has advised me that she would like to take some action, but she's waiting for the recommendations of the committee. I don't know; I'm not a politician, so I don't know what the definition of that is.

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

When was your last meeting?

[Mike McGlennon]

It was just before your summer break. It was in that last week before your....

[Luc Desilets, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Very well.

I thought I heard earlier that the only document that distinguishes between “wartime service” and “special duty service” is an insurance document.

Did I hear that correctly?